We need exchanges with many different kinds of Chinese. They can be with cultural associations without always fearing that they're connected with the United Front. Those are real people in all of our ridings and neighbourhoods. We need discussion with top scientists and researchers, as far as we can do that, and we need to train them. We also meet up with Chinese government officials.
The most useful collaboration I've ever had on the Chinese side was with people from their ministry of foreign affairs on how we build multilateral institutions in Asia. These things have to be looked at very carefully on a screen, and what kind of information is being provided, but we need multitiered activities with Chinese colleagues.
It becomes a really difficult problem as to who we shouldn't be working with in China. Is it because they are members of the Chinese Communist Party or because they're connected to the military? Making those distinctions demands an enormous amount of discussion on our side, but also intelligence and due diligence about who those partners are. Often, we don't have it.