Evidence of meeting #30 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aiib.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bob Pickard  As an Individual
Steven Kuhn  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Julie Trépanier  Director General, International Finance and Development Division, Department of Finance

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 30 of the House of Commons Special Committee on the Canada–People’s Republic of China relationship.

Pursuant to the order of reference of May 16, 2022, the committee is meeting for its study of Canada-People's Republic of China relations with a focus on the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank.

First, I have a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of the floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. As reminder, keep the earpiece away from the microphone, so we don't thrill the interpreters with feedback. It's not pleasant.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

I'd like to welcome a couple of visitors to our MP lineup. Mr. Liepert, from Calgary, is joining us today. We actually also have my neighbour from Langley—Aldergrove, right next to our riding of Fleetwood—Port Kells. Mr. Van Popta is subbing for MP Lantsman.

For our first panel now, we'd like to welcome Mr. Bob Pickard, who's here as an individual. He's allegedly no stranger to these precincts, including this building. We'll leave that explanation for another time.

Mr. Pickard, you have up to five minutes to deliver your opening remarks.

3:40 p.m.

Bob Pickard As an Individual

Let me thank the chair and all members for welcoming me here today to communicate what happened with my experience at the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, which was a traumatic, dramatic and, in my case, very patriotic moment. That's because I felt that our membership in this organization was not giving this country a single thing of tangible value that we could proudly explain to people here in our country that their membership in the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank would be delivering them back home.

In the decades since Xi Jinping proposed the AIIB in 2013, AIIB has never become well known globally. What public awareness it did have was often tainted by a perceived association with the controversial and increasingly aggressive geopolitical policies of the People's Republic of China, especially the belt and road initiative.

It was in this context that I was approached to help build a profile and to shape a positive public image for AIIB. I was asked to join as the bank's global communications chief in late 2021, not long after the two Michaels were released.

Having previously served in senior capacities at public relations firms such as Edelman and Burson-Marsteller, with 16 years of Asia-Pacific experience, I was well placed to help AIIB communicate its story. However, before signing on, I had some concerns about whether the PRC government was exercising undue influence at the bank.

AIIB's published governance did allay these concerns somewhat. I was reassured by the presence of western countries on the shareholders list, including of course my own country, our country, Canada.

It didn't take me long, though, to realize after joining the bank, that the reality of power inside of AIIB does not match the rhetoric and to see how respected G7 countries like Canada, with a reputation, were brandished like trophy members to help attract western capital and to avoid hostile policy consequences from U.S. authorities in Washington.

Inside of the bank, CCP members wield power in many of the most important positions, from the top down. Mr. Jin, the president of the bank, himself a staunch CCP member and former Red Guard, often articulates Chinese government policy as if it were his own.

As the bank’s spokesperson, I advised him that he should communicate his views as the leader of a multilateral organization, and refrain from parroting the PRC government’s point of view.

Even though I was supposedly in charge of all global communications for the bank, I subsequently discovered that Mr. Jin’s office, dominated by Communist Party members, was directly involved in crafting messaging with PRC media for the domestic Chinese market that differed from what the bank was communicating in English to overseas audiences.

Devising public messaging to distinguish AIIB from the controversial BRI—which of course is Xi Jinping's signature, number one, most important geopolitical expansion project—was seen as a critical priority. That was requested of me directly by President Jin. Yet, privately these two PRC initiatives seemed uncomfortably more intertwined and interrelated than I had been led to believe.

In my own department, a CCP member—imagine this—was appointed as my personal assistant. I found out that this Communist Party member, appointed as my assistant, was secretly reporting directly to the most senior party member in Mr. Jin’s office.

This arrangement, to say the least, was outside of the bank’s supposed reporting lines. I had an in-house snitch reporting directly to Communist Party members what was going on, meaning every journalist I met with and every civil society leader I met with.

Interestingly, in 2022—I'd been there for a number of months at this point—the Communist Party presence in the president’s office at AIIB was bolstered by the arrival of a new colleague whose job description nobody seemed to know, except that he was supposed to be “the new party guy”.

Within a few months, Mr. Jin’s office suite underwent a remodelling: security locks were installed, controlling the access of all AIIB staff.

The bank's vice-presidents, none of them Chinese, needed to be buzzed into his office for the very first time, and that created a lot of resentment internally.

This cocooning of the AIIB president is consistent with how the information he receives and the issues he decides are filtered through the two CCP officials whose offices inside this bubble were closest physically to his.

Now at the AIIB, almost nothing Mr. Jin, the president, sees, says or does happens without the deep involvement of these two Communist Party officials. How do I know this? I know this because the communications department, for which I was responsible, was located right next to Mr. Jin's office.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Mr. Pickard, your five minutes has expired. I'm sure you have more to say, and perhaps you can work that into answers to some of the questions that you'll be receiving, which will—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Yes, Mr. Cormier.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

IT asked me to double-check. Can hear me now?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Yes, we can.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Okay, perfect. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Yes, we can see you too. There you go.

Mr. Seeback, the first six minutes are yours.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Mr. Pickard, I'm going to suggest that you continue from where you were so we can get the benefit of your entire statement.

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Bob Pickard

It's not much longer. I'll go as quickly as I can. Thank you for that.

I would say that the thing to understand here, the key point, is that the AIIB president's office is unusually powerful, even in the context of a multilateral organization. It's extremely top-down, and that office is a cocoon that is physically cut off, and it is dominated by senior Communist Party members.

Heel-clicking obedience, as I would describe it, to the president's office is valued more highly than any other virtue at the bank, including, notably, freedom of expression or thinking differently than other people do, which is kind of ironic when you consider that it's a multilateral organization.

I think you have to realize that externally, over and over again, AIIB says that it's an apolitical independent organization, but, honestly, internally, the atmosphere there in Beijing is anything but. It's political, and it's CCP political. There's a big difference between those two, and that has helped to create a toxic culture inside of this organization.

When I first resigned last May, citing my concerns about the CCP's pronounced, profound and pervasive influence in the everyday operating business of the bank and its toxic impact on the culture, Mr. Jin, the president, did not accept my resignation. He talked me out of it, and I was kind of shocked that the bank did not deny or confirm my allegations or concerns about CCP influence. I was simply informed that the president's office did not like my raising the taboo CCP topic.

After accepting my second resignation in June, when I left in a hurry for Japan, the bank started attacking me personally. Journalists covering the news of my departure, some of whom I'd known for a long time before I joined the bank, warned me that bank executives were trash talking me off the record, and this was well before any bank investigation took place. Hundreds of pro-AIIB, pro-CCP bots on Twitter targeted me with insults. I was accused of being an American agent of espionage, a white supremacist, a neo-colonialist or part of some nefarious Canadian government plot to embarrass China, which brings me to this.

When I announced my departure from the bank, I did not ask the Government of Canada to do anything, period. I acted in an individual capacity out of what I considered to be ethical responsibility and a patriotic duty, frankly. I have co-operated, though. I have supported the review conducted by the Government of Canada and provided information to the Department of Finance in this regard. Indeed, I note that several of the topics of the extended review mirror concerns that I raised with the Department of Finance on transparent governance, management competence and proper professional culture at the bank.

I'll make this final point. When Mr. Xi proposed the AIIB, he was a relatively new leader, still seen as a potential reformer, maybe somebody like Deng Xiaoping in 1978, but now we have a neo-Maoist leader of China, an authoritarian dictator.

After so much political interference, things look much different than they did then. We all hoped that, by placing this bet on a multilateral institution in China, we could have a window on Asia's development. Well, I think what we have now is a bank for China's influence, where China gets exclusive geopolitical credit for the lending of the bank.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Mr. Pickard, I wanted to give you that time, but I actually do need to ask some questions.

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Bob Pickard

Go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

The first thing I want to ask you is this. You said there was not a single tangible benefit given to Canada as a result of the involvement. To the best of your knowledge, has any of the money that Canada provided to the AIIB been refunded back to Canada?

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Bob Pickard

Not that I know of. I don't know the details of that kind of financial transaction. I did not take documents from the bank when I left AIIB. I would not have access to that information now.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Are you familiar with the PRC's 2017 National Intelligence Law?

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Bob Pickard

Not by that name, no. I'm aware of how business is done in China, but that's a general statement.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

The law obligates individuals, organizations and institutions to assist the PRC security and intelligence services in carrying out a wide variety of intelligence work. That would apply to all Chinese citizens. Would that mesh with your experience of what went on at the AIIB, as a result of the National Intelligence Law?

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Bob Pickard

Oh, definitely. It's a question of first loyalty. I believe it's very clear that in the bank that would be the responsibility of the 30% toward 40% of the staff who are Chinese nationals, many of whom are, of course, CCP members.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

As you reflect back on the comments you've made about the bank, its structure and the CCP talking points, etc., would the fact that this law obligated individuals to behave in a certain way “square the circle” for you, if you'll excuse the phrase, on why this was going on?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Please give a short answer, Mr. Pickard.

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Bob Pickard

Okay.

I think so, yes. What I experienced is consistent with what you're talking about.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Thank you, Mr. Seeback.

We will now go to Mr. Fragiskatos for six minutes or less.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Pickard, for being here today.

You outlined a range of different things for us in your opening statement in the previous round. I wonder if you could provide us with a summary of the key allegations you're making.

Based on previous media reports, I have a sense of where you're coming from, but in the testimony here, I just want to make sure that committee members have an opportunity to understand the specifics of what you're alleging with respect to the AIIB.