Canada-China Relations Committee on Dec. 11th, 2023

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I know. You just said before that there were some you objected to, but they went ahead.

[Steven Kuhn]

There have been projects where we have raised questions about forced labour. I do not know specifically—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Could you table with this committee the projects that Canada objected to as a result of its concern that the finances were going to companies that use forced labour?

[Steven Kuhn]

Yes. I can do that.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you very much.

Prior to Mr. Pickard's revelations, did the Government of Canada have any concerns about the governance structure at the AIIB, the fact of the 2017 National Security Law and the encroachment of the CCP in the bank?

[Steven Kuhn]

There are a range of issues being discussed as part of the review. There are a number of those issues that have been on our radar and have been considered and that we have been pushing through the governance channels of the institution for some time.

I was not specifically aware of the allegations Mr. Pickard has made with respect to the employees of the institution and whether or not they are members of the Chinese Communist Party. We have asked for evidence of that, and we do not have evidence of that at this stage.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Can you table—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Seeback.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

—whatever these concerns are that have been raised, if they're in writing or internal to the government? Can you please table those concerns for the committee as part of this study?

Can I get a yes or no?

[Steven Kuhn]

Sure.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thanks, Mr. Seeback.

We'll now go to Mrs. Lalonde for five minutes or less.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to go back.

I think you were trying earlier, and maybe my colleague raised the same sort of line of questions, but I just want to hear clearly.... Certainly, the allegations that Mr. Pickard has raised are very serious. During any of the conversation with him, what sort of concrete electronic or physical evidence has he provided to the department?

[Steven Kuhn]

They are important issues that he has raised, but it's also important to note that his testimony, as he said himself, was oral and was backed by a number of emails that he provided that emphasized his points. However, he was not able—by his own testimony—to provide written or documentary evidence to corroborate or substantiate the most serious allegations he has been making.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much for this. I know you were trying earlier to say this.

You also referred to emails that he referenced as a narrative observation from him. Is that correct?

[Steven Kuhn]

Yes, that is correct.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Okay.

I want to take us back, certainly, to the Government of Canada's position and what it means when we say that we have an indefinite pause of Canada's activity at the AIIB. How long has this pause been in effect? What does that mean exactly, Mr. Kuhn?

[Steven Kuhn]

The pause has been in effect since June 14. That was the date of the original announcement by the Deputy Prime Minister. That has meant a couple of very concrete things for us.

First of all, as I alluded to in one of my previous answers, it has meant that we have not participated in board of directors meetings since that time, and we have not participated in the annual meetings of the institution since that time. In fact, it means that the employee on my team who had been assigned to be the alternate director, the board representative on that institution, is no longer in that position, and our board seat at the institution, our alternate director seat, is vacant.

It has also meant that, while we have made four capital payments into the institution, we have withheld the fifth capital payment, which is now overdue, and we will not make that payment while this pause is in effect.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Okay, thank you very much, again, for that answer.

Last but not least, you did mention that Canada was—and I'm looking at my French here....

During your review, which government partners did you work with to obtain additional information and arrive at certain decisions?

[Steven Kuhn]

I just want to get some clarification. Is the question about other government partners or the breadth of partners that we have been working with on the review?

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Yes.

[Steven Kuhn]

Maybe it's helpful just to lay out some of the elements of the review that we've been undertaking so far; I haven't had the opportunity to do that.

Since speaking with Mr. Pickard, who was one of the first interviews that we had in June, we have engaged in some 40 other interviews as well, including current and former employees of the institution, Canadians who work at the institution or have worked at the institution.

We have been speaking with Government of Canada expertise as well, including at Global Affairs Canada.

We have been speaking with the security and intelligence apparatus within Canada, as well as with a number of allies, partners and members. However, in addition to those 40 or more interviews that we've engaged in, we have also been reviewing public records and records from the institution.

Mr. Pickard, in his testimony, referenced employee surveys. We've been looking at those employee surveys and comparing those to employee surveys of similar institutions. That's just one example of the kinds of records we have been examining as part of the review.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Perhaps I was not clear.

To what extent have you been working with international partners as you do the review?

[Steven Kuhn]

We have had quite a number of conversations with international partners. As I said in a previous answer, these include not only some traditional, like-minded allies but also a breadth of other countries that are members of the institution and have views to provide for the review.

Unfortunately, I'm not able to speak about the specific countries, other than those that have chosen to be named as part of the announcement on Friday. Others are working more quietly behind the scenes to help us through some of the questions that are outstanding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mrs. Lalonde. That is your time.

We'll now go to Mr. Chong.

We're going into the third round. We'll have five minutes for Mr. Chong, five minutes for Mr. Fragiskatos, and two and a half minutes each for Mr. Bergeron and Ms. Ashton.

Following that, there may be a little time left. If there is interest, we can have one question from each party represented here, and that will wrap it up.

Mr. Chong, the next five minutes is yours.