Canada-China Relations Committee on April 8th, 2024

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

CSIS doesn't grant clearance. CSIS, the RCMP and others provide advice. There is an individual within either Health Canada or PHAC who grants the clearance. Who is that individual?

[Heather Jeffrey]

It's granted by the security department of the Public Health Agency.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

It's a departmental security officer or some similarly titled person.

Why did they grant access to PRC nationals for a level 4 lab, which is contrary to government policy?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I think the engagement and the correct....

Go ahead, Madam Jeffrey.

[Heather Jeffrey]

Access for those students was through a research affiliate program with the University of Manitoba. Those students did not have clearances under the Human Pathogens and Toxins Act and therefore were not involved in level 3 or level 4 lab work, or in any of the restricted pathogens and toxins.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

They required top-level clearances to get into the lab.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Chong, I'm sorry, but your time has expired.

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes, they required a security clearance.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have one final, quick point on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Make it very quickly.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

It wasn't just students. A senior technician at the Wuhan Institute of Virology—a PRC national—was also granted access to the NML. That was also contained in the documents. They were identified as “individual number 2” in the documents.

Again, it was somebody in the department. It was not the two scientists in question because they're not granting security clearance for their own lab. Somebody else in the department granted them security clearances.

Why are they not being held responsible for that gross negligence in protecting our security?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Perhaps I can answer at the back of the next question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Yes, I think maybe in subsequent answers you can cover that.

We'll now go to Ms. Yip for five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for coming tonight.

Did you want to answer the question?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I will. Go ahead and ask your question. I can put it at the end.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Sure.

Just to be clear, does Canada have bilateral research collaboration with the PRC's scientists?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Today it does not.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

People have approached me with a number of concerns regarding the security research guidelines and the new named research organizations lists. Some Chinese Canadian scientists feel uneasy or targeted or that their careers could be limited due to having a Chinese name. They're worried about being under a cloud of suspicion.

How do you balance the national interests of security with the concerns of some in the Chinese community?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Thank you very much for that question. I think it's an important one.

It's important to distinguish the action of an individual from making collective statements. In this instance, these were two Canadian citizens who engaged in reprehensible actions that are reflective of them and only them. I think we have to be very careful, when we're talking about scientists or any individual, not to ascribe anything to anyone other than the people who were responsible for taking those actions.

In this geopolitical environment, with tensions being where they are with China, it's very difficult to separate out the actions of the Government of China from those of the citizens of Canada who happen to have Chinese ancestry or, for that matter, people living within China. There are unbelievable numbers of wonderful Chinese scientists doing incredible work for the betterment of humanity in China now. We cannot allow the actions of the Chinese government to colour our view and create the kinds of distortions that you're talking about. We have to root that out.

I would suggest that we need to step back and consider very carefully how we address these issues. I always think of first principles. The first principle, as everybody in this room agrees, is that protecting our nation from foreign interference is our top priority. We have to protect this country. Beyond that, we have to protect democracy.

We would secondarily agree that any attack on the scientific community or on the domestic affairs of this country is an attack upon all of us. Every member of Parliament is equally affected by that.

Thirdly, the actors engaging in this are separate and apart from any community. They are either a government actor or individuals making these decisions. We have to not view them in the context of a community.

We have to think very carefully because we've seen, historically, that when broad characterizations are made and we are not careful with the brush we paint with, we hurt a lot of very innocent people. I think we have to be very careful about that.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Ms. Jeffrey or Ms. Huggins, do you have any comments that could perhaps reassure Chinese Canadian scientists?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I'd say that this is one of the reasons it's very important that any allegations or indices are tested through investigation by the appropriate security agencies and that evidence is collected through all of the means and tools at their disposal. In this instance, we had individuals who misrepresented themselves. Those who have not done so have nothing to fear from this process, and we need the talents of all of our scientists in Canada.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Maybe I could add to that. This is one of the really dangerous things here, because what we don't want to have happen is for the national microbiology laboratory or anybody who's working in the area of virology, vaccines or therapies to start being afraid of collaborating. It is the lifeblood of scientific discovery. The threats we face from the potential of new pathogens are extraordinary. We need to, wherever possible, work with folks.

As to the part of the questions, looking back five years, about why we were collaborating and why we were working like that, it's because these people are earnestly trying to find solutions that save human beings. It is so sad that now these lines are having to be drawn and that we're losing international partners.

We can't allow further barriers to come to innocent Canadians, people who have done nothing wrong and who are leaders in their field. We can't have suspicion cast upon them, have people not collaborating with them and have their research not being listened to. In our fear of one thing, we can't create a shadow that does incredible damage in another area. We have to hold that in our minds as we debate these issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Ms. Yip. That's your time.

We'll now go to Monsieur Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to what I was saying a few minutes ago. Despite the indications, we didn't seem to draw the conclusions we should have drawn over the past 20 years. In addition, it seems that the objective and tangible facts were not properly assessed.

For example, in the case of Xiangguo Qiu, the Government of Canada listed the research organizations with which she was affiliated. However, that list didn't include the Wuhan Institute of Virology and didn't mention that it applied to be part of the People's Republic of China's thousand talents plan.

How is it that this crucial information was not included with the list of organizations Ms. Qiu was associated with?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

In my opinion, the person you're talking about lied. Misinformation does happen, and it's terrible, unacceptable.

I simply don't understand why a Canadian citizen, a well-known scientist throughout North America, would misrepresent the facts like that.