Canada-China Relations Committee on April 29th, 2024

[Nathalie Drouin]

As you know, I started that job in January of this year. I did have some bilaterals with some colleagues where we talked about different risks, whether it's the risk relative to artificial intelligence, securing our space or economic security. We also talked about different risks, but not specific to managing labs, for example.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

That's fine insofar as the question of security is concerned because we can focus on labs, as we naturally are here. You mention AI. This is an emerging area, and one that there are so many questions about.

Do you have any thoughts on that specific issue?

[Nathalie Drouin]

On AI?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

My question is on the security perspective and what that means for Canadian security as it relates to China specifically.

[Nathalie Drouin]

As you know, there is tremendous potential when it comes to AI, but also different risks relative to that—individual risk in terms of how you use AI, and organizational risk in terms of the potential of hacking systems in cyberspace. There's also a systemic risk or ultimate risk when we stop controlling the machine and the machine is controlling you. Those are the big types of risks that international safeguards.... We'd like Canada to be a lead player in determining what those safeguards should be regarding AI for the future.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Vigneault, I didn't expect to be talking about AI tonight, but you've raised it, and I think it's a relevant point.

When we think about prevention, what role does AI play? I know it's very difficult to speculate about the future, but this is an emerging area. What role could AI play in this regard in securing...? I'm not thinking in specifics here. I'm not talking about labs per se, but about overall security, whether in relation to labs or critical infrastructure. Does AI have a role to play? Is this something that security officials like you and counterparts are talking about and looking to? There's the negative side of AI that's widely discussed, but we should make it work for us wherever we can, I think.

[David Vigneault]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

Absolutely, we're trying to look at AI from two sides of the coin. We need to look at how we can harness artificial intelligence in our own practices. At CSIS we are using AI for different processes already. We're working with partners in Canada and around the world to try to harness artificial intelligence from a national security point of view and how it could be of benefit. We do that because we also understand, or try to understand to the best of our ability, the threat that comes from nefarious actors using AI.

We've talked about how artificial intelligence can easily be used right now by fairly unsophisticated actors to create deep fakes that are are credible enough to lead someone to believe that indeed an action was done or words were said by someone.

It is not just a problem for the future; it's a problem for today. The more we can work together on understanding and harnessing the power of AI while protecting ourselves would be great.

As was mentioned in Ms. Drouin's opening remarks, Canada is one of the most dynamic areas of the world for artificial intelligence. We have some of the best scientists and some of the most cutting edge research. We know that this is a target for a number of people, so we're working with the appropriate partners to try to secure that research and innovation.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

We'll now go to Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Drouin, at the end of our discussion, you were talking about the administrative and political arenas. You said that it was more of a political issue, which was subsequently resolved in a political manner. However, to illustrate what I called the government's stubbornness in not wanting to disclose the documents, I will point to something you will certainly recall from your time at the Department of Justice, the fact that the government even went so far as to sue the Speaker of the House of Commons.

Doesn't that illustrate the stubbornness that I inferred from the government's attitude?

[Nathalie Drouin]

No, not at all.

As I said earlier, it was not a refusal to disclose the documents. It was a refusal to do so in the forum that was presented. Unfortunately, for what I would call political reasons, the situation became very black and white: do it or don't do it. That is in addition to the fact that we were torn between having to respect your privilege as parliamentarians and having to obey the laws that you pass and that we are required to obey. It was extremely difficult for some public servants, including the former president of the Public Health Agency of Canada. It was like squaring a circle for us. Since no political solution was proposed at the time, meaning a solution that you found together as parliamentarians, our only choice was to turn to the courts to help us resolve the conflict between respecting parliamentary privilege and obeying the law.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

However, I don't need to tell you that parliamentary privilege has constitutional status.

[Nathalie Drouin]

Yes, and we also have to obey the laws that you pass.

This is an absolutely fascinating legal debate for a lawyer, but unfortunately, it has not yet been resolved.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Indeed.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Bergeron, I'm sorry, but you are well out of time.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I would like to ask one last question very quickly.

Everyone agrees that we need to reform the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act.

When will that happen?

[Nathalie Drouin]

I can't say. You have heard Minister LeBlanc and others say on a few occasions that they would like CSIS, for example, to have the necessary powers to share information with other levels of government.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Drouin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

We'll now go to Mr. Angus for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Angus, it's your turn.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Vigneault, we were talking in my first round about the cyber-attacks that were launched against the National Research Council, the Treasury Board, the Bank of Canada and various parliamentary institutions in 2014, which were tied back to China. Those began to raise red flags. This year, we had FINTRAC pulling its corporate systems off-line due to cyber-attacks.

Were those cyber-attacks tied to sources in China, or was that another kind of gang activity?

[David Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, I'm not at liberty to discuss the specific details of that cyber-attack. The origin of that attack has not been attributed publicly by FINTRAC.

I can say that we and our other partners in the national security and cyber community in the Government of Canada are working directly with FINTRAC to support them, but the attribution has not yet been made regarding this event.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much for that.

I guess my question is this: Are we seeing an increase in cyber-attacks by the People's Republic of China? What is the government doing? What has CSIS been doing to address that over the last 10 years?

[David Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, to the question by Mr. Angus, I would say that we are seeing and detecting more cyber-attacks from the PRC, and also from many other countries and states, but from criminal organizations as well. We see the rise of ransomware that is sometimes purely criminal in nature. It's to be able to accumulate dollars fraudulently. Sometimes we see those ransomware groups working at the behest of states. We also see state-sponsored cyber-attacks against government entities for spying purposes.

Also, in a very worrying trend, we see that some countries are engaging in cyber-attacks against our critical infrastructure. They are directing those attacks often to pre-position themselves to not necessarily stop or undertake any action but to be there, and when they decide to act on Canada or other countries, to force Canada to take a specific policy position. This is an area of concern. The PRC has been publicly called out for that in the recent past.

I would say that CSIS plays an important and unique role in what I call the "cyber-ecosystem". We're working very closely with our partners at the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security and CSE and with our partners at the RCMP, Public Safety Canada and Treasury Board.

What essentially you see, Mr. Angus, is that we need to bring this ecosystem of all the different players who have the tools and authorities to do something to really play well, because our security depends on it. The actors who are attacking Canada for criminal or national security purposes are getting better at it. We need to increase our own vigilance.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Vigneault.

We'll do one more round of five minutes each. First it will be Dr. Ellis and then it will be Mr. Erskine-Smith.

Dr. Ellis, you have five minutes.