Canada-China Relations Committee on April 29th, 2024

[David Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, as I've mentioned numerous times at this committee, I cannot reveal the specific details of our investigation, and that would include the specific information that was known at some specific points. I think we have been through the process that was established here to provide our documents.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Let me ask you, sir....

[David Vigneault]

There have been a lot of very specific details provided—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Sir, my time is very limited. I appreciate your trying to answer.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that they could very well have desired to flee to the PRC, which they now have. Therefore, what steps were taken, or not taken, to prevent them from fleeing to the PRC? These are two individuals who were and are under a criminal investigation.

[David Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, as I think members know, CSIS is an intelligence organization. It's not a law enforcement organization. We have no powers to detain, intercept or arrest anyone.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that.

When did Dr. Qiu and Dr. Cheng first come under the radar of CSIS, and when did CSIS first open an investigation into them?

[David Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, the documents that have been provided to the committee, and my testimony in previous appearances in front of your committee, indicate that we first engaged PHAC in the guise of a threat briefing in August 2018. It was at the tail end of that meeting when PHAC officials approached CSIS to raise concerns about the two scientists.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Therefore, CSIS began looking into Dr. Qiu and Dr. Cheng some time in the fall of 2018. Is that accurate?

[David Vigneault]

That is accurate.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay.

At any point, did CSIS brief the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister's national security and intelligence adviser or any minister in the government about Dr. Qiu and Dr. Cheng? If so, when and who?

[David Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, we have provided numerous briefings to the officials the member is speaking about. I do not have the specific timelines in front of me.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

That would have included the Prime Minister and his national security and intelligence adviser.

[David Vigneault]

That is accurate.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Would you undertake to provide the timelines to this committee of when those briefings took place?

[David Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, we'll definitely undertake to try to collect that information to the best of our ability. Yes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Was an issues management note, or IMU, ever produced on the security breach at the Winnipeg lab?

[David Vigneault]

The IMU notes are now very famous. I will have to go back and verify whether one was written.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you. If you could undertake that, it would be appreciated.

Did CSIS produce any intelligence reports or intelligence assessments of Dr. Qiu or Dr. Cheng that are not part the Winnipeg lab documents that were tabled in the House of Commons?

[David Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, through you, do you mean other than the ones that were produced?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Yes, other than the ones that were produced.

[David Vigneault]

We have, Mr. Chair, produced a number of assessments that I have been speaking to in terms of scientific research in Canada being targeted by foreign actors. I will have to double-check to see whether there was anything over and above what was produced in committee. I just don't know that.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for undertaking to get back to us on that.

Paragraph 54, for example, of the CSIS security assessment of Dr. Qiu states that she gave access to “two employees of a PRC institution whose work is not aligned with Canadian interests”.

What PRC institution is being referenced in paragraph 54 of that report?

[David Vigneault]

Mr. Chair, as you know, these documents were produced to the committee through a very elaborate review process with three distinguished judges. The information that is produced to the community at this point is what is available, what we can release in the public domain. I will not be able to go further than that at this point, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

We'll now go to Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of you for being here tonight.

Ms. Drouin, I'd like to ask you about conversations you would have had with counterparts, whether it's in the Five Eyes or G7 for example. I think about the future, I think about preventing things like this from happening again. Do you have, or have you had, discussions with counterparts—every country is a different system, of course—or colleagues who share a position like yours to compare and contrast approaches on ensuring something like this won't take place again?