I think the discussions on human rights or on our issues just need to happen in more public ways now, because most of the discussion has been in private.
Of course, there are always measures and there's strength at certain moments in negotiating behind the scenes. I don't know. I feel as though at this point, dealing with Xi Jinping and looking at how far he has gone and taken China off a cliff, we're in desperate times, and we need more intense measures and more public measures.
I see a shift, and it's great, but I don't feel as though it's enough. There's still this idea that we'll be dealing with Xi Jinping and the Communist Party forever, and I think that's a flawed approach. I think our governments need to think about the future of China as being Chinese people and rights defenders and whoever comes next.