Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 20th, 2006

[Pierre Bélanger]

No. They didn't come to Timmins. As I said, Timmins is about three and a half hours north of Sudbury.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Okay. I apologize, because most people don't know where places are in my constituency. So I apologize. I'm usually critical of people who don't know where these places are, so I may as well be critical of myself.

Again, I'm not trying to make any point. I'm trying to figure out how we can make more efficient use of your time and of the committee's time. Would it have been easier, if you had been able to get from Timmins to Sudbury, if you'd been aware of the meeting in Sudbury?

[Pierre Bélanger]

Yes, for sure. Now, if we have to come to Ottawa, we'll come, because if we can talk directly to the committee—

You know, it's a first. It's the first time in 20 years that the grassroots organizations can talk directly to committees. I thank you for the opportunity to discuss these things and for you to know exactly what's going on, because that's really political efficiency. And then we can find proper solutions to the problem.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

And I think what we're also going to have to do is make sure that we're half-decently efficient, as well, and that we get the blues, the transcription of this meeting, to the official languages committee, so that they've completed a full circle.

[Pierre Bélanger]

Super.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

[Pierre Bélanger]

Thank you, Mr. Abbott.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I remember the time when people from the Francophone community were considered second-class citizens in northern Ontario. At the time, if you were a foreign worker or a Francophone, you worked in the mines, and if you were an Anglophone, you were a manager.

But the situation has changed.

I would say, again, as an anglophone watching, that the francophone community of the north has been very, very successful. So many of our young leaders are francophone. The sense of pride, the sense of identity.... We have a flag. It's not the Red Ensign; it's the Franco-Ontarian flag. I see it flying everywhere.

I'd like to get your perspective on how much it has been transformed in the north, and what steps we would need to take in terms of government policy to ensure that it continues. As a supplementary to that, because I'll leave this question to you, I remember when the francophone community in the north began its very vocal struggle to maintain its rights, and there was a sense in the anglophone community that these rights would be coming from the anglophones. That sense seems to have disappeared. And now you have the Cree in the region also speaking on behalf of their rights.

Do you see the success of the francophone community in northern Ontario as being part of the overall success of the community, all the communities, or is there still a need to tug away rights from one group in order to secure rights for the minority?

[Pierre Bélanger]

I was born in Quebec, but I've lived my entire life in Hearst, Ontario. What was special about Hearst was its economic vitality. It was one of the small towns in Canada where there was the largest number of millionaires per capita. For example, the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce was one of the banks that had the biggest deposits in Canada based on population.

There were a number of generations of entrepreneurs: the Fontaines, Lévesques, Lecours, Gosselins. I was educated in that community. The community as a whole didn't have any difficulty. Like the people in the west, New Brunswick or remote regions, we were used to getting by on our own; that's what we did in Hearst. We created cultural centres at first without government assistance.

Then things got complicated. All the large businesses established by Francophones in Northern Ontario, whether in Kapuskasing, Hearst, Timmins or elsewhere, were bought up by U.S. multinationals or other companies. That's a very tough change to follow and live with because we're losing natural allies in the community organizations.

There are still a lot of Francophone entrepreneurs in northern Ontario. In Timmins, even though they have English names, 45 to 48% of businesses are owned by Francophone entrepreneurs. Since these are businesses operated in Ontario, bearing a French name in a city where you're in the minority could cause problems.

Our region still enjoys considerable vitality. Will we be able to make the turn of the twenty-first century, to modernize and to make the necessary changes? I'm quite optimistic, but we need help in doing so.

In the past, believe me, we fought for our rights. I spoke to entrepreneurs like Mr. Brousseau, who was a subcontractor for Malette Lumber Inc. of Timmins. At first, they had to fight for services in French from Bell Canada and bilingual billing from Hydro Ontario.

Battles were fought for every service that we take for granted in the major centres. Those battles are now a thing of the past. We've taken our place and it only remains for us to finish the job for us to have all our institutions. Let's take the example of Quebec. The Anglophone community is solidly rooted there, it's vibrant and it accepts the fact that Francophones are in the majority in that province. It contributes to Quebec's economic development. This is an extraordinary model. Canada has the ability to be a country of tolerance.

What we're asking is for a little assistance in doing the same thing in Ontario. If we develop Francophone rights, I don't see why we couldn't do the same thing for those of the Aboriginal communities. When we fail to train part of the labour force and the education system is not accessible to everyone, we lose the economic contribution and creativity of geniuses, artists and people that Canada can't do without if it wants to develop and take its place in the global economy.

We're going through a terrible crisis. That's why we're sounding the alarm. We want all Canadians—and that has always been Canada's trademark—to be able to find the resources to develop their potential, wherever they may be in the country. That will contribute to everyone's economic development, and that's what our entrepreneurs and communities need.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much.

I must say, before you finish, that at the end I usually give a few little statements that I've picked up as time has run on.

One of my very best friends is from Timmins. He played a little hockey down our way. I always said he must have one day gotten a breakaway. He returns home very often, and I've learned a lot about the north from Dennis.

I'm quite sure French-speaking practitioners could be quite a difficult thing. Just on Saturday evening, in my home town of Stratford in my riding there was quite a thing put on by the hospitals as they try to recruit new doctors, as they come up. The doctor shortage is quite prevalent right across the country, I'm sure, and more prevalent in some of the more remote areas. I live in a rural community, and some of our small rural municipalities are without doctors. I can understand your concern there.

One question I had was whether your organization gets any funding support from Ontario.

It gets none from Ontario?

[Pierre Bélanger]

None directly. If we prepare a project, sometimes we'll get some funding. That's the only way we get it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay.

One other thing you talked about was that a lot of the time it's easier to trade around the world or with our American neighbours than interprovincially. That's been a great concern of mine for years and years, and I think it's something that has to be rectified.

The other thing is that you are not the first person to come before this committee or other committees seeking long-term, sustainable funding. Ever since I have been on this particular committee, I've heard it not only from the CBC, but from sports organizations, from museums, from most people. I think it should be on merit, and long-term, sustainable funding is the way to go, rather than giving you projects so that you have those peaks. And if you can work within certain criteria, that long-term, sustainable funding would be there.

So those are just a few things I've suggested. That's the way I feel. But I understand a lot of your answers and your presentation.

Again, thank you very much for attending this. I'm glad this committee is finally recognizing you and having you before it. I know that for years the museums never got in front of a committee. So I am pleased that you were here today. We've all listened to your concerns.

Have a safe trip home.

We're going to adjourn for about five minutes, and then we'll go back to business again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome back.

Now we'll move to our second part here, to committee business.

First of all, we have a notice of motion from Jim Abbott, a notice of motion from Charlie Angus, and a notice of motion from Maka Kotto. There has not been 48 hours of sitting time for these motions. I would suggest that if we're going to carry forward on these motions today, to deal with them, we would need unanimous consent around the table to go forward. We've dealt with the 48 hours' notice before.

One is dated the 15th, one is dated the 16th, and one is dated the 8th, but last week doesn't count. It's sitting days. It's 48 hours of sitting days. It's no different from if a motion came in on Friday at three or four o'clock and you wanted to deal with it on Monday; we couldn't deal with it. We went through that before. We can't deal with it until the Wednesday meeting. That's how it is.

Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I don't have a problem dealing with these, whether or not it is as you say. My difficulty with what you just said is that the Government of Canada quite often tables notices in the week that the House isn't sitting, as we saw with amendments to Bill C-2, for instance, being tabled in the week the House wasn't sitting, and that counts as the 48 hours' notice. So I'm not sure. I would be interested in getting the verification on that. I'm not sure that you're right, Mr. Chairman, but that's beside the point.

I'm quite prepared personally—and I can't speak for everybody else—to deal with all three of these right now and waive the 48 hours' notice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay.

Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Certainly the government is very keen--not that we're not keen on the CBC--particularly on getting into some kind of a discussion, on getting into these motions with respect to the museums. Certainly I think you would find the government members, the Conservative members, to be in favour of unanimous consent. I think that it might be of value—this is just a suggestion, not that I'm doubting your ruling, except that Mr. Bélanger has raised this question--for us to maybe get some detail just for future reference, not for this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm taking my direction from what I thought I received when I went to the chairmen's seminar on that particular day. I didn't realize, and I'll still stand by it, that 48 hours' notice, if you're on a break week.... I received these this morning. The clerk gave these motions to me this morning, so that's how long I've had. I would be willing.... We can debate this all the time.

Would someone like to make a motion so we can go forward with that?

[An hon. member]

I so move.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay, it's moved that we go ahead with these motions. Are we all in favour?

We have unanimous consent, and we will go forward.

Mr. Abbott.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I would like to speak on both of the motions relating to the Museums Association, but I would like to do that after we discuss something first. I've had a very cordial discussion with Mr. Kotto, but unfortunately I didn't have an opportunity to have a discussion with either Mr. Angus or Mr. Bélanger, though I think maybe the Canadian Museums Association people may have.

My motion was not intended to be an antagonistic motion. The purpose of my motion was to move forward with becoming relevant as a committee in providing input to the minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Kotto.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I have a point of order. Mr. Abbott has already moved on with his motion. We haven't fallen into agreement on your decision not to consider the two motions introduced with 48 hours' notice last week, when we weren't sitting in the House. According to the information I've just received, that's not valid; 48 hours is 48 hours, whether we're sitting or not.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

We agreed to consider them.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Then I withdraw my remarks.