Canadian Heritage Committee on March 20th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you, sir.

Please go ahead, Ms. Fry.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming, because I think your presentation is vital. There are huge minority communities of francophones around this country. In British Columbia, for instance, there are about 65,000 francophones, but they're not all in one place; they are scattered all over the place. Only Vancouver really gets any CBC French language programming; with the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique, they get some media covering what they do. But in Campbell River and in other areas of B.C. up north where there are huge francophone communities, nothing is said, nothing is done. I think the problem most people underline is that from the CBC, people in Quebec and across Canada have no idea of the minority communities of francophones in British Columbia. And CBC's mandate is not only to reflect Canada to others, but also to reflect regions to Canada.

That brings me to what we were talking about earlier, which has to do with the digital medium. With new digital media, CBC has an opportunity to do this, to be able to reach and link digitally the small communities across Canada, especially francophone minorities, and to make sure this is nationally available, so that Quebeckers know what the regional diversity of Canada is about in terms of the francophone minority. Francophones get Quebec media very easily, but there is no other flow.

I would like to ask your opinion on this. Do you think that if the CRTC, instead of waiting 10 years, became proactive and decided to look at Internet licences, so that the CBC could develop not just radio but also TV on the Internet to move across this country, this would be one way of bringing a linguistic reality in terms of bilingualism and the francophone reality across the country? Do you see an Internet licence from the CRTC as an integral part of this, so that the CBC could move into the digital media? As we heard earlier on, it's not merely francophone communities but also rural communities who cannot have access any more because cable companies now have all the infrastructure for digital, and people can't afford to buy a lot of that digital access through cable and the box they have to buy, at about $400 each.

So moving into the Internet would be a great way of introducing a whole new group of young Canadians to the francophone minority, which could also be done through iPods. Do you see that development of an Internet licence as the crucial thing? How do you think we can get the CRTC to understand that that should be done now and not in 10 years' time?

[Graham Fraser]

Let me respond, first of all, to your comments about the francophone minority in British Columbia. One of the first trips I did after becoming commissioner was to Vancouver, and I was extremely struck and impressed by the vitality, the innovation, and the energy of the francophone minority in reaching out to connect—often through high technology in the classroom—communities scattered across the province. I think new technologies represent an extraordinary opportunity to connect not just francophone and anglophone minority communities, but also communities everywhere.

In terms of the specifics of whether licensing is the appropriate route to go, in the past the commission has suggested there should be some regulatory action taken, not only in economic terms but also in social terms.

But I'll refer to my assistant, Gérard Finn, for more detailed comment on that aspect.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

That's what we were told by the digital people, that this is what needs to be done.

[Gérard Finn, Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Communications Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages]

Yes, we have observed in the past, for example, that in terms of what is available on cellphone as TV, there are only two French language stations, Météomédia and RDI. There are a lot more stations available in the other official language without regulation. So the remote communities will not have the kind of access they have via the traditional way if it is continued in this way.

[Graham Fraser]

The one thing I would like to amplify from the remarks I made during my presentation was that when I was in Saskatchewan 10 days ago, I met someone from a rural community who said he had signed on to a satellite service expressly so he could get more French language programming, and in the process he lost access to the local French language station based in Regina. So there is a certain paradox, in that in signing on to a satellite service you lose part of what you've got.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Absolutely.

We heard that with a lot of the satellite services now, 95% of their content is non-Canadian. So how can you, by signing on to a satellite service, get Canadian content?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We have to keep going, as we're in overtime here.

Thanks.

Madame Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Gentlemen, good morning.

Mr. Fraser, on page 2 of your brief you state that you strongly support the efforts of the CBC to serve or maintain a strong French TV and radio journalistic and cultural presence in communities outside Quebec.

What do you base that statement on?

[Graham Fraser]

As commissioner, I travelled throughout the country and met with radio and television hosts in stations from Vancouver to Regina, for instance. These people do excellent work covering local events which serve as points of reference for the minority communities in the region. As is the case everywhere, not only does local radio and television play a role in terms of information and awareness raising, but it also serves to bring the community together, giving the community something to identify with.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

However, I would like to point out that in your brief, you refer to a strong journalistic presence. I'm not trying to say that the journalists that are present there are not of high quality, because you're telling me that they are. I agree with that.

My question has to do with the fact that last week, when we went to Vancouver and Yellowknife, the people that we met were in fact complaining of a lack of journalists and of French culture, a complaint they backed up with evidence. That is why I wanted to check with you as to where you had seen a strong journalistic presence, because we were told that the quality was high but that in terms of their numbers, that was an entirely different story.

[Graham Fraser]

Oftentimes, small teams do extraordinary work under difficult conditions. Perhaps my saying "a strong presence" reflects the fact that I was overly impressed by the quality of their work. I must add that I did not poll the news rooms to see how the work was being done. It is quite possible that these are people who... I must also admit that we still receive complaints as to the high turnover among journalists and hosts in regions outside Quebec.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I'd like to speed things up a bit, because I have four questions to ask.

My second question has to do with what's written on page 3 of your brief where you seem to be focusing on cross-linguistic programming within the CBC.

What about French-language communications outside of Radio-Canada? Have you looked into the issue of whether Radio-Canada was indeed fulfilling its mandate in terms of official languages?

[Graham Fraser]

When you say outside of Radio-Canada I don't quite understand what you mean. I mainly referred to the possibility of Radio-Canada and the CBC working together. I gave examples of programming that was produced in the past. Unfortunately, instead of this being part of the trend, it is rather exceptional, and there has been no follow-up. The success of these shows certainly, in terms of quality, did not produce a team which continues to work on joint programming.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I asked you this question, Mr. Fraser, as a segue to my third question. You will see that there is a relationship between these two points.

In part four of your brief, you mentioned that the government by order in council should direct the CRTC to require Canada's direct-to-home satellite providers to carry the signals of all local television stations of the CBC and Radio-Canada.

I'll give you an example to illustrate why I'm asking you this question and the relationship between the two. I am a francophone and when I spend 15 days in a hotel in Vancouver, I only have access to the news in English, on CBC. I don't have access to Radio-Canada's French-language services, only to childish shows.

So, as Official Languages Commissioner, do you have any right of review over programming, in terms of the language aspect of the Société Radio-Canada? You responded with respect to internal programming. I am now asking you to tell me a bit about external programming.

[Graham Fraser]

I don't think that it is Radio-Canada's responsibility to see to it that their programs be broadcast in hotels. I myself have been in this situation, desperately trying to access programs in hotel rooms outside Quebec. We have not looked into the issue yet, and we are indeed thinking about the possibility of such a study, from the television viewer's standpoint. We are still thinking about this issue. Some studies may help to answer your question. I do not think that it is Radio-Canada's responsibility to make sure that its signals are available in every hotel room.

I don't, in fact, have a clear answer as to who is responsible for this; I did take note of your question. From the point of view of a TV viewer in a hotel room, I will attempt to find out who is responsible for this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus is next.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Good morning. I represent a region where there is a large francophone population and I have a good understanding of CBC's role in maintaining the francophone identity of francophones in Northern Ontario.

As I listen to this discussion this morning, what strikes me is the issue of the role it plays in maintaining and building a sense of identity, because no region or group wants to listen to somebody else's dialogue; they want to participate in their own dialogue. In our region, Radio-Canada plays a unique role for the isolated communities because they talk to each other: they hear their own people on the radio and they hear what's happening in the other little communities.

Sure, it's fine to hear the news from Montreal, but if all they hear is the news from Montreal, it's not going to maintain their community or their identity in any way whatsoever. It's the ability of Radio-Canada--in our region in the north, anyway--to have a dialogue among the various communities.

I'd like to ask you how you think that dialogue is taking place in other regions of this country in which there are francophone minorities. You gave the example of Saskatchewan. Are they maintaining that, or are we basically just sending out from Montreal and Quebec City one voice that's supposed to be heard everywhere?

[Graham Fraser]

I think radio plays a particularly important role, and in the five months since I have been commissioner, I have been very struck by the degree to which local Radio-Canada programming across the country is very vigilant in following the news that affects their listeners.

I found that I'm watched like a hawk by the various French language programs across the country, and in any of the travels that I've done at this point, not only am I followed by Radio-Canada journalists, but I have also become aware of the degree to which the groups, the organizations, the citizens that I meet, themselves get a great deal of their local and regional information from Radio-Canada.

Television is a bit more complicated. I think that CBC television, both in French and in English, has been handicapped by the funding limitations. There was a period a few years ago when, faced with some hard financial choices, CBC decided to eliminate a large number of local programs, and it was basically this committee that came back to the CBC and said, “No, no. We insist on your playing that role.” But they do have these serious financial challenges in trying to play both the national and international and a vital regional and local role.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You noted in your presentation the issue of the mandate to direct CRTC to require Canada's direct-to-home satellite providers to carry the signals of all local television stations to the CBC and Radio-Canada. We have here in our office in the Timmins region concerns that cable networks are pushing francophone television up to the higher numbers on the cable dial so that it costs more money. In my region there's a 40% to 50% francophone audience, and they're having to pay more money to access their own services.

We're seeing issues in terms of other parts of the country, and we had Mr. Shaw here just recently complaining he had to carry 13 stations that he claims nobody watches. Those are 13 francophone stations in western Canada.

Are you seeing a pressure from the cable companies to push the francophone audience into a pay-per-view situation, or is there an issue of diminishing access that you think we have to address?

[Graham Fraser]

I'm very concerned about this. I've written to Rogers about Rogers' decision to move French language channels in a cluster above the 100 point, I think is where it is on the dial.

I've always thought that one of the important ways in which people would get access to French language programming was by simply dialing past French language networks, that it's a kind of televisual ghettoization to say, basically, “You're not going to even have to cruise past these as you go to your regular programs.”

I can't tell you the number of times people have said to me in years past, “I was flipping the dial and I came across you in French.” These were people late at night in a hotel room punching a dial. Well, if it's all up there in where (a) you have to pay for, and (b) you don't go, it's really going to limit any kind of intercultural contact on the television dial, and it concerns me greatly.

And it's not just cost reasons. The cost reasons are a factor, but what's increasingly happening is that the industry is changing so fast that there are all kinds of new costs, hidden costs, equipment costs. It's not just a cost factor. I think it's also an isolation factor that has to be taken into account.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Fraser. We appreciate your testimony before us today. We appreciate the insight you have brought.

Today we're discussing the mandate of the CBC and where we might go with them, what recommendations we may make to our public broadcaster, and what we feel they have a responsibility to do.

As does Mr. Angus, I represent French communities in what is for the most part an English-speaking area, which also has the interesting dynamic of being rural. As can many people, they can access the French language, but unfortunately they're not speaking their language. It's the whole issue of being able to pick up the local radio station that's talking about what's happening downtown or whatever; it's speaking about things they understand, but it's the wrong language.

So there's a real paradox in this whole situation, in that it's great that the CBC has to some degree, as Mr. Angus suggested, folks speaking in their language, but if it's going to be the news from Montreal, it's really not pertinent somewhere else. That's something that maybe we can get into a discussion about at some point. I don't know how much involvement you have as a language commissioner in the discussion of what content should be available or if it's just an issue of whether the language should be available to these people.

[Graham Fraser]

I certainly don't have direct responsibility, and CBC/Radio-Canada are quite jealous about their responsibility for programming. I think I can bear witness. As you have, I have heard a lot of people in different parts of the country express a certain amount of frustration about learning more about traffic conditions on the Jacques Cartier Bridge than about what's happening in their part of the country.

Some members of Parliament have taken to referring to Radio-Canada as Radio-Montreal. I think that's not entirely fair when you look at the efforts that are being made in the regions by hard-working, very professional journalists to create lively, relevant, interesting local programming. Often the regions can become an afterthought, and some of that frustration is often felt in other parts of the country. It's a reflection of the frustration that is sometimes felt about Toronto as well. I know that CBC makes a real effort to ensure that its broadcasting is not Toronto-centric. This is an issue the people really wrestle with internally, but it's a challenge.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Great.

The irony of it has been that we have a community with the name of Falher in my constituency, and just recently they were one of the top contenders for the Hockeyville CBC program. The irony, of course, is that it's a French-speaking community that was being highlighted on English television. We're very proud of Falher and the success they had in that competition. The irony, I'm sure, you understand.

We need to discuss the mandate with regard to CBC. We need to figure out where we're going to go from here and if there are any suggestions we're going to make. As you suggested, CBC and Radio-Canada are quite jealously protective of their programming. They are very protective.

Just this morning I had a conversation with one of the CBC employees who did reiterate some of your concerns about CBC's not being told how to execute their programming. I'm just wondering how we square the circle to ensure we don't get involved, that we, as parliamentarians, and you, as an officer of Parliament, don't go into the area of dictating to CBC, but on the other hand still ensure that CBC is going to have a mandate. I'm just wondering how we can put this into a context to ensure that CBC is given direction, and that it does not, as this employee stated, become a state broadcaster.