Evidence of meeting #47 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbc.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Concerning the economic role that the CBC could play with regard to the artistic community, I would like know what form this could take.
Would it be done through agreements with Canadian artists or with groups such as yours? I would like to know more.
You say that the CBC could hire more artists, but agreements would need to be concluded beforehand, correct?
Chair, Manitoba Arts Council
Wouldn't the artist sign a contract, as they do now? I don't think the Manitoba Arts Council would be acting as some sort of impresario. The individual artist would negotiate with the CBC, just as they do now, and as I think they do for any broadcasting system anywhere.
Douglas may know more about this.
Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council
I can only say that I think there is an opportunity for more partnerships between Canadian private sector producers and CBC. That certainly has been happening, and it can happen more in terms of script development as well as program development and delivery.
Probably we're also missing a link here--a link that we're becoming more and more aware of--between our live arts and our.... To some extent, I think, Quebec probably has more of that connection than we do, because we're so spread out and we don't have the access. Let's face it, we're Toronto-centric, and unless we're connected in some way to that world, we have to work that much harder to actually build a partnership with CBC. But I think the opportunities are there, and we have to be aggressive.
I was in Australia a couple of years ago for a couple of conferences, visiting a number of companies, and it was extraordinary to see how aggressive the Australians were in terms of.... Of course, they don't have the elephant next door, but they are very isolated. Their own identity comes from their aggressive investment in the arts, in broadcasting as well as in all the live arts.
So I think we just need to open our minds a little bit in terms of creative ways in which we can actually build new programming and build new audiences.
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you for coming today.
I'm going to ask about the two issues of radio and television, and I'll start with radio.
When I used to tour the country as a professional musician, I guess my eyes were opened to the role that CBC radio played. As a young group, I don't think we ever listened to CBC. It wasn't on our radar--until we began to tour. In every city we came across, we were always brought into the CBC recording studios and radio studios for interviews, especially in western Canada. Calgary, for example, is the nation's centre, I would say, for folk group music on radio. It comes out of Calgary. So it was an eye-opener for us, travelling across the country, to see the role that CBC radio played in terms of exposing artists to a regional audience but also exposing regional artists back to the nation.
Can you give me your sense of how well CBC radio does in terms of presenting Manitoba on radio and also ensuring that Manitoba voices are heard at the national level?
Chair, Manitoba Arts Council
I think it could represent Manitoba better than it does, but it does broadcast the MCO and the WSO coast to coast.
Most of the programs I listen to happen to be programs that are broadcast nationally, so Douglas may know more about this.
I mean, we get news about Manitoba, and interviews. I think the Manitoba content is fairly small, but I haven't studied it, so I'm not sure about that.
Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council
Actually, I would say it's medium.
We do have a fairly reasonable...partly because Winnipeg and Manitoba are known as hotbeds of culture. We do produce, one way or another, with or without the CBC or funding sometimes from the Manitoba Arts Council, quite extraordinary artists. They can't help but be noticed, and they are picked up by producers either here or in other centres.
I'm not quite sure where that energy comes from. It exists here. I think CBC is a very important part of that energy, that ecology, if you like. It plays a different role in radio drama, for instance, than it used to, because it doesn't produce radio drama here anymore. That voice is gone. There were voices from this community, and they now have to go to Calgary or elsewhere.
In terms of music especially, I think we have an extraordinary voice. It's growing and changing in terms of popular as well as classical music. To have the CBC actually come here and spend, say, ten days for the New Music Festival is just extraordinary. Our presence in that world is very high and very significant, both nationally and internationally.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Yes.
In terms of television, I think we have to come forward with some realistic recommendations. I mean, Don Messer's Jubilee is not coming back. I wish it would, but it's not. So we have to look at what CBC does.
We hear regularly about how poorly Canadian television does compared to U.S. television. But you know, last night I did my little hotel surf and I watched, on American television, a bounty hunter reality TV show and a one-hour reality TV show about a tattoo parlour. I wouldn't watch it for 15 minutes; it was on for an hour. I saw some outrageously bizarre political discussion on some of the U.S. channels that would make us blush, they were so over-the-top. There were some very predatory humour shows. And then I saw an excellent PBS documentary, actually on Canadians in Afghanistan. There was a Mary Walsh comedy, which was actually very funny. There was a Canadian hockey game, and there was news that was fairly reasonable. I was thinking maybe we aren't as challenged as we think.
The question is, how do we better utilize our television resources? So I'm going to put it to you: we can't be all things to all people, so where should CBC television go? Should we look, for example, at restoring one-hour newscasts in regional markets? Should we be doing only drama? Should we be getting out of expensive TV drama and doing documentaries? What role should CBC television play in a multi-channel universe?
Chair, Manitoba Arts Council
Well, I think it should go back to producing drama, because that has helped actors all across the country and has made them known to other Canadians. I think the one-hour newscast is a good thing. And I made the same point about American television being brutalizing.
One of the things the BBC does so well is produce programs that are so good that they're sold around the world. I think some of ours are anyway, but if the CBC had more money, our shows would be shown around the world as well.
I don't know if I've answered your question.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Well, you've basically given me all the things I was saying people want CBC to do. I'm asking you to tell me, should we be getting out of news? Should we be focusing more on news, or should we be focusing more on drama? Some of these choices are going to be either/or, I would imagine.
Chair, Manitoba Arts Council
I can't see why there has to be a choice between drama and the news. We used to have both. Why would there be a choice?
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Well, limited dollars in terms of television and television expenses. Should we be doing regional documentaries more so than...? I'm just asking. If we have to start making our top four choices of what television should do in this market, because we have limited resources, where should those resources best be spent? Is it in drama?
Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council
Perhaps I can add to that too, because I think it's interesting. It's like any arts organization that comes to us for funding. We ask for a vision statement and the mandate, and I know that's exactly what you're here to discuss, but then of course, when that vision statement is clear, the mandate is clear. And I think that's probably our challenge around what a public broadcaster should be.
The emphasis we now find ourselves in, in terms of this modern world...you can't get away from sports. I mean, there is hockey on every night now, for how long? But that's okay because that's part of our culture, and an important part of our culture. So I think the either/or is dangerous, because somehow there is a sharing of.... I won't watch every hockey game, but you know what, I'm going to watch a few of them because they're exciting and interesting and they're a part of my world at different times, depending on who's playing.
But I think it's the same when you look at drama and when you look at news. You'll be attracted and then touched, we hope, by the work that is important to you. So there needs to be a bit of a menu. I think somehow it's how you actually shape that menu, you're saying, and what has emphasis and what doesn't, and that's a huge challenge for the Canadian government, period.
Maybe we do have to find some kind of new relationship between the regions and the national, as our public is shifting. How does Manitoba, which is not growing as quickly as it could or should, develop its voice and have a fair share of its voice in the community, not just based on its population but based also on its talent? We invest a lot of money in our artists and therefore we have a very high rate of return. CBC should be part of that in some way.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for appearing before us today and for taking time out of your busy schedules.
This is a mandate review. We're reviewing the role of the public broadcaster in Canada. I suppose what's a little bit troubling and challenging here is the fact that the current mandate is quite broad, dealing with Canadian distinctiveness, the reflection of Canada and its regions, the French and English languages, and national consciousness and identity, but it doesn't tell us how we're going to fulfill that mandate. Depending on the leadership of the CBC, we've been taken in different directions. Most recently we've been taken in a direction where CBC appears to be trying to compete with the private broadcasters, and that, I think, is where the challenge lies. Is that the role of the CBC? The mandate could be construed to actually include that. It could also be construed as being quite different.
We've had other witnesses before us. In Ottawa recently we had a former president of the CBC together with the chief of staff to former Prime Minister Joe Clark. In many respects their comments reflected yours today, especially when it comes to the commercialization of CBC. One thing they came up with was that they would like to see CBC become less commercial, rely less on commercial revenues. They didn't take the position that CBC should become totally non-reliant on those revenues, but they certainly saw a lesser role for commercial revenues.
They also suggested that subsidies to the private sector, to the private broadcaster, should be eliminated, but as a trade-off they suggested that Canadian content requirements should be reduced or even eliminated for those private broadcasters.
What do you see as being the role of private broadcasters in supporting a public broadcaster? Do you have any suggestions for us as to how that could be fleshed out? Or should private broadcasters be released from some of those shackles in return for contributing towards a more robust public broadcaster?
Chair, Manitoba Arts Council
In the first place, I don't think the private channels would contribute to that. I don't watch the other ones very often, but they're not really that impressive. I think the Canadian content rules should be applied and kept, and the CBC should be fulfilling the mandate as it's laid out. It's pretty clear.
Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council
Perhaps I could go back to our small metaphor around the arts organizations...or the similarity in terms of how we fund various arts organizations. It's interesting, because all the same realities apply. In the different disciplines we've actually taken a look at our level of subsidy based on that organization's ability to generate revenue, which is exactly what you're talking about. Dance is different from theatre, and contemporary dance is different from ballet, and ballet is different from a gallery, which sometimes doesn't charge entrance fees at all but is open to the public.
What our council has done, and what I think other arts councils across the country have had to do, is assess in some way the public value of what these different organizations are prepared to create. How much do we value that? How much do we value sharing our stories through the CBC? If we value them extraordinarily, then we will subsidize those areas more highly than others.
You're quite right, in some cases we don't subsidize commercial theatre at all. They're out on their own. But again, there's a synergy here; you can't get away from the fact that the industry crosses over all the time. People work in all of these different areas. They may work for a private for a couple of months doing a major production, but then, as an actor or as a designer or whatever, they will go and work on a CBC show, having made enough money on the private, hopefully, that they will be able to work at different rates for the CBC, which may not be that high or may be higher. That kind of analysis is interesting to do in terms of the way our world works today.
As for Canadian content rules, there's no question they've worked in terms of music and radio broadcasting. Is it time to have a look at that? If the focus truly of CBC is on Canadian content, and significant Canadian content, then why not suggest that others are free to do as they will? That's essentially what we do with commercial operations. They come to us many times, and we tell them they're indirectly subsidized in all kinds of different ways.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
And that has been the suggestion from some, that the private broadcasters want more freedom to do what they do best. They feel they're shackled right now by some of the Canadian content requirements. If in turn they recognize that public broadcasters have a significant role to play in Canada, if they in turn then contribute back and say, “Hey, we believe in the role of the public broadcaster, and here's what we're prepared to do to help government fund that organization to make it robust and vibrant”, maybe that will work as a new approach to this.
I sense that you're perhaps agreeing, sort of.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
I have just one other question that has to do with hockey.
You just had a dialogue with Mr. Angus on hockey, and there have been some suggestions again by Mr. Neville and by Mr. Manera, the former president of CBC, that CBC should get out of hockey altogether, that there are other broadcasters that can do as good a job of delivering that to the Canadian public, and that those efforts should be refocused on delivering drama, documentaries, perhaps children's programming. Do you concur with that assessment, or would you prefer that CBC keep its finger in Hockey Night in Canada?
Chair, Manitoba Arts Council
I find that difficult to answer, because there are avid hockey fans in my family, and especially when hockey is on every night for the playoffs, I just go and read.
I really don't know how to answer that. Hockey is such a Canadian thing that even though I never watch it, I don't think I would like to see it go. I just wish it wouldn't be every night during playoffs.
