Canadian Heritage Committee on April 11th, 2007

[Dave McLeod]

In terms of our partnership with the CBC, I went to the CBC office on Portage Avenue and we had a meeting just to talk about what possibilities there were. There was no initial intention that we were going to do something; it was an exploration.

The CBC doesn't have an idea of what is really going on in the aboriginal community. They have a lot of non-aboriginal producers producing aboriginal content, and I think those producers are put in a situation where they're not equipped and they don't have the knowledge and background of the aboriginal community. In that situation there is an opportunity because they don't have that connection or knowledge of the aboriginal community, so they will ask questions and we will look and see what is going on and say, “Well, let's try this here” or “Let's try that there”.

The game show idea was my idea. I said, “Why don't we do a game show with aboriginal languages?” I know at aboriginal language festivals they'll play some games like that in the gatherings. I said that concept could turn into a really good radio program. That's where it started. So it came from an open discussion, a seed of an idea.

The CBC had their input into that idea, with their expertise, of course, with some of the game show history they have. Reach for the Top was a game show in Manitoba here. It was a well-known game show, and part of the concept of that game show was used there.

That's just one idea. What other ideas are out there that haven't been thought of or discussed? If you collectively put all the societies together...there are hundreds of ideas that haven't even been thought about, which I'm sure would create exciting programming that the producers currently don't even know exist, that is out there.

I think storytelling is another area. I'm fascinated with traditional storytelling, and I think there are a lot of oral traditions that a lot of non-native people would be interested in, particularly Europeans. I've had the opportunity to travel through Germany, Scotland, and Holland, and people always ask about aboriginal storytelling and history: “Is it still there?” “Is it still alive?” “Are those legends still being told?” Yes, they are. Canadians generally don't even know that. That's just another little note.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, I find this a fascinating discussion, and I think your recommendations are excellent.

We're looking for a new chair for the CBC as part of our recommendations. Would you take the position?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm very keen to ask you about your recommendations, but I want to set this up with my own outsider's interest in aboriginal radio, because I've seen it in two contexts. When I worked with the Algonquin Nation in the Abitibi region of Quebec, we had a few isolated radio stations that were speaking to the aboriginal community, but we didn't have the framework that we see in Manitoba, of a much larger...where the communities could speak to each other. When I was working with the Algonquin community I certainly had the sense that regional alienation was probably exacerbated and the loss of language was exacerbated by the lack of a unifying Algonquin radio station.

In my region in the north we have Wawatay, which has done a phenomenal job in the northeast, where we have Cree Radio, and in the northwest, where they have OjiCree Radio.

You've talked about lessons to be learned from the public broadcaster, but I would also argue that the lessons need to be learned by the private broadcasters. The reason I would suggest that you have such a large radio listenership is not simply because you have a large aboriginal audience but because aboriginal radio is a lot more fun and engaging to listen to than private broadcast radio or, often, CBC.

You talk about it as a sense of home. I listen to aboriginal radio wherever I can pick it up because I feel I'm listening to something that's fun and dynamic. One song is by Ernest Tubb, the next song is by Led Zeppelin. People call in. People share stories. I have a sense of immediacy that I don't hear anywhere else in radio.

Is that the experience that you see here in Manitoba as part of the success of your radio network?

[Dave McLeod]

Yes, I certainly do. We have really diverse programming, but I have to say this as well: when you have diverse programming like native languages and community information, it's difficult to make money from that.

What we've done is we're basically running two radio stations at the same time. We have a day format, which is very commercial. It's a hot country sound with some aboriginal music in it. Why we have to do that is because we have to sustain income for the station to continually grow. When NCI puts a site in Winnipeg, or outside of Brandon, that's $220,000 of our profits we're putting into that. That doesn't happen by itself; that happens from investment in our fundraising, in our activities, and then we focus the moneys to where they're needed. Our continual growth has been very positive, but at the same time we're running the aboriginal sound and a commercial kind of day sound in order to raise the revenues through our commercial advertising.

I think what happens with the commercial broadcasters is they question some of that, but it's necessary that we do that. I just think that we are going to continually grow and I think we're going to get to a point where commercial broadcasters are going to be asking, “Why is the native station so popular? Why is the native station so large? Why is the native station still growing?” I think that's going to happen very soon.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You talked about the need for certain call-in shows on issues--again, not exclusive radio, but inclusive radio, or perhaps inclusive television as well--and that might be an area of partnership with CBC. I definitely feel that in our region, in the northeast of Ontario, people want to have that dialogue but it's just that there's no forum for that dialogue to take place in an interactive media. Have you begun to work on this yet, or is this the kind of partnership that you see moving towards down the road?

[Dave McLeod]

I think the CBC needs to pull up its socks in terms of serving the aboriginal audience. I think we need both. I think we need partnerships and we also need the CBC to say we are going to make a real commitment to aboriginal programming. The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in 1996 commented on ad hoc programming, that it's just done ad hoc, and I believe that's where it still is today, in 2007. So there has been some progress, particularly here in Manitoba, where some native staff are hired, which is great, but it's not at the level it should be to represent the populations. If you go to Portage Place right now, you're going to see a lot of native people, and that's Winnipeg--a lot of native people.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Fast.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you for appearing before us.

The 13 societies you referred to are non-profit broadcasting organizations within Manitoba--is that correct? Or is it all across Canada?

[Dave McLeod]

All across Canada. SOCAN as well is one of them, and there's a French group in Quebec as well. So yes, all across Canada, across every region in every province, particularly in northern Canada as well.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

And NCI is focused on Manitoba?

[Dave McLeod]

Yes, with 57 transmitters from Winnipeg to Churchill. We have two 100,000-watt transmitters in southern Manitoba. You can literally drive across Manitoba on the Trans-Canada and hear NCI the whole way across. We're neck-and-neck with the CBC. If you talk about CBC radio reach, you're talking NCI radio reach. That's how big we are.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

You focused most of your comments on what you're doing to meet the needs of your communities. You spent a little bit of time on the CBC and highlighted some of its shortcomings in meeting your needs. It sounds to me like the work that you're doing through NCI and through the 13 societies is actually quite successful, even commercially successful. You're making that a commercial success by using innovative strategies. To me, that's encouraging.

This focus, of course, is CBC's mandate per se. During your presentation, and I'm not sure I understood it clearly, were you suggesting there was a role for a second public broadcaster, or were you suggesting a more robust role for the CBC to provide aboriginal programming for your community?

[Dave McLeod]

I was referring to NCI. The community has so many needs that there needs to be an urban version of NCI and a rural version of NCI. That's because of the population growth. Right now, the aboriginal population is growing and succeeding. An example is at the University of Manitoba, where 10% of first-year students right now are aboriginal; in 1962 it was something like 0.5%. So we're seeing an educated base of aboriginal people growing and flowing into urban centres. Right now, in a lot of the communities, housing is an issue. Education money and opportunity in those communities are not high, nor are living conditions. Moving for the betterment of your children out of a community into an urban centre is the reality in the aboriginal community right now. That's what I was talking about there.

We see that, and when you look at CBC, where is that reflected? People look to us. I think CBC needs to play a role, as a provincial broadcaster, in reaching all people in Manitoba. Where is that voice? Where are those people?

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

This begs the question: if you're doing the job so well, can CBC ever hope to meet the kinds of standards that I think you're setting for it? As you said, non-aboriginal programmers are trying to program for aboriginals, which is a huge disjunct and a huge challenge, and I'm not sure that's not going to deliver the results you're asking for. Is it perhaps not more effective to focus resources on assisting you in doing your job better than having CBC do something that it may never be able to do as well as you expect it to?

[Dave McLeod]

You need both.

I go back to the talk show. My dad was a big fan of Our Native Land. I remember he used to like that show. He wouldn't say much, but when he heard it he knew that was the reality, that was what was going on, and people were hearing it. That needs to come back.

In terms of what we do, yes, we're going to grow. There's nothing but growth for us. We see it in the population; we see it in the education system. Over 40% at University of Brandon are aboriginal right now. We're seeing doctors, lawyers, every profession graduating right now. The brother of a friend of mine is an architect, and he just graduated last year. We're seeing a lot of professionals on the rise in this province.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

As well as politicians.

[Dave McLeod]

And politicians.

That's the reality of Canada. That's not the aboriginal community; that's Canada. That's where Canada is at, and that's where the aboriginal people are at right now. It's an exciting time. We're all living through history right now, living history. Twenty years from now, people are going to look back at this time as when things started growing, when things started happening.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much.

I apologize to our next witnesses that we've had a little mix-up here this morning. Some people had notice and re-notice of change of venue, and that's why we have gone a little longer here this morning.

Ms. Neville, do you have any questions?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I have many questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I would like to give you--

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

One is for clarification and one is on a sidebar issue.

Thank you for coming. These are fascinating presentations.

You obviously were talking about the CBC. You made a comment, just a few minutes ago, where I inferred that you said that the best that CBC does for the aboriginal community is hire a few staff. Is that your view at the moment, that that's the best CBC is doing for aboriginal communities?