Canadian Heritage Committee on June 5th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 68 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this is a full investigation of the role of a public broadcaster in the 21st century.

This morning we have with us, from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Tony Burman, editor-in-chief of CBC news, current affairs, and Newsworld, CBC radio and television; and Alain Saulnier. He is the general manager, news and current affairs, French services.

Welcome, gentlemen.

Mr. Burman, you're first on the docket, so we'll let you go first, sir.

[Tony Burman, Editor in Chief, CBC News, Current Affairs and Newsworld, CBC Radio and Television, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

Thank you for this invitation. It is a privilege for Alain and for me to appear before your committee.

For the past seven years, as editor-in-chief of CBC's English services division, my role has been to oversee the news and current affairs programming on CBC television, radio, Newsworld, and CBC news online.

For more than 50 years, CBC/Radio-Canada news services have been keeping Canadians informed about their community, their country and their world at large. During that time, the CBC has moved from being a radio-only broadcaster to a multi-platform service to Canadians and to others around the world.

In the past four years at the CBC we have integrated CBC news and current affairs operations across CBC radio, television, and our increasingly important online service. This has not only been more efficient, it has enriched all of our local and network programming by ensuring that information, ideas, and resources can be more easily shared.

In my opening remarks I'd like to focus briefly on three aspects.

The first point is the CBC as Canada's window on the world. CBC/Radio-Canada has more international bureaus than any other news organization in Canada.

In many of these bureaux, our correspondents report for both the CBC and Radio-Canada. We truly are Canada's Window on the World.

Let's recall the past year. I think of Afghanistan. The CBC stood out for its efforts to give Canadians the most comprehensive coverage. The National, with Peter Mansbridge, is the only national newscast that has ever broadcast live out of Afghanistan.

Think of Lebanon. In the eleven months since last summer's war, only the CBC has stayed in Lebanon. Only the CBC maintains a full-time bureau in Beirut, with correspondent Nahlah Ayed.

And think of Africa. Our commitment to covering the horrible incidents in Darfur has taken us back to that region in Sudan repeatedly, in spite of the dangers inherent in such reporting. At one point last autumn we were the only network in the world in Darfur.

A second important area is the CBC as a provider of original and unique programming. There may be a multitude of choices in today's ever-changing media world, but many of them in Canada are owned by very few companies. More than ever, we would argue, there is a need in this modern democracy for a strong, public broadcaster.

You'll recall the Ontario lottery story, first told by the fifth estate last autumn. This investigation represented the finest traditions of public service Canadian journalism. Stories such as this--and there have been many of them recently on local and network programs on CBC radio and television--are the product of excellent, diligent, original work.

We sometimes hear it said that there's no need for CBC news because the private broadcasters do exactly what we do, and they do it well. We can agree that private broadcasters do some things very well and we can perhaps debate it some other time whether they do them better than CBC. But there is no debate about the role of CBC news when it comes to bringing Canada together at important times in our history. No other broadcaster comes close in providing live coverage of major events that tell the story of our country.

For the past 12 years in a row, CBC television news has been honoured with the Gemini award for the best live news special of the year. Last summer CBC news provided the world with coverage of the AIDS summit in Toronto and the World Urban Forum in Vancouver.

Just a few months ago, we were the only broadcaster that produced TV coverage of the ceremony at Vimy Ridge for the 90^th anniversary of the historic battle there. It was only through CBC Television that Canadians saw our new War Museum opened.

Surely when it comes time to measure the value of a news service, one of the litmus tests is how the service rises to the occasion when the country needs it, often when no other broadcaster will.

My third and final point is about the CBC as a journalistic organization uniquely accountable to Canadians. Our duty to provide accurate, fair, and high-quality information to Canadians is at the heart of CBC/Radio-Canada's mandate as a public broadcaster.

At the CBC we have several safeguards to ensure not only that this is achieved but that Canadians can hold CBC news accountable.

CBC/Radio-Canada has an extensive code of journalistic standards and practices, a policy book, which I think you have on your desk, that is widely respected internationally by other broadcasters and news organizations. As editor-in-chief, I write a regular media column for cbc.ca dealing with policy issues and inviting contributions, including criticisms, from our audience.

And of course there is the CBC ombudsman. Canadians have access to an independent ombudsman at both the CBC and Radio-Canada to resolve major complaints about programming. In addition, CBC/Radio-Canada reaches out to experts and its audience to continually monitor the quality of its news and current affairs programming over the course of a season.

It's important to stress that no other broadcaster or news organization in this country has accountability safeguards as stringent as at CBC/Radio-Canada.

Everyone in Canada has an opinion about CBC, particularly about its news programming, and we wouldn't want it any other way. As we are often reminded, we are not perfect, and we acknowledge that, humbly. That is why we are so focused on improving.

But let's keep things in perspective. Every public opinion poll on the subject indicates that CBC/Radio-Canada is Canada's most respected news organization. In audience numbers, CBC radio news is number one in local and network programming in many Canadian markets. CBC Newsworld is Canada's top-rated news channel, by nearly a two-to-one margin. CBC news online is Canada's most popular Internet news site. And many of our TV news and current affairs programs, including The National and the fifth estate, are at least equal and often ahead of their commercial competitors in audience numbers. So there are accomplishments that should never be overlooked.

Thank you for your attention. I look forward to our discussion.

I would now like to introduce you to my colleague from Radio-Canada, Alain Saulnier.

[Alain Saulnier, General Manager, News and Current Affairs, French Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation]

Ladies and gentlemen, good morning. I am very pleased to be with you today to talk about news and information at Radio-Canada. Exactly one year ago today, Sylvain Lafrance, CBC/Radio-Canada's Executive Vice-President of French Services, announced the integration of all Radio-Canada news and information services under a single structure, and entrusted me with the mandate of managing this revamped news department.

The key objective of this restructuring was to allow us to respond even more coherently to the challenges of the 21^st century. It was about strengthening our public broadcasters' French services so that they remain a touchstone for citizens looking for references, and seeking to better understand the world they live in. Radio-Canada already possesses many assets enabling it to fully assume its role as a public broadcaster.

First of all, I remind you that Radio-Canada is the only French-language media organization in the country to provide such a broad spectrum of news coverage. How many francophone news operations can boast of having reporters in Toronto, Vancouver, Moncton and Calgary? You know the answer without even asking the question. All media considered, we have the largest contingent of French-speaking reporters in the country.

We are also the only French-speaking media outlet that presents international news reports and analysis. With our 11 foreign correspondents and several hundred regular contributors posted on 5 continents, our international news gathering presence exceeds that of all other francophone media in the country. Were it not for Radio-Canada, French-speaking Canadians would increasingly have to rely on the English media and on international news agencies to get a sense of what is happening around the world. No other media outlet, print, radio, television or web, offers as much content in French about the world, and the world in our backyard, as Radio-Canada does. Unlike others, we are not limited by our national territory. With a presence from coast-to-coast and spanning the globe, Radio-Canada is uniquely positioned to explain to Canadians what is happening in their regions, in their country and worldwide.

For this Fall, we have implemented a regional strategy across all of our services with the goal of strengthening our regional roots and ensuring better reflection of regions on our national networks. In news, for example, this has meant a greater presence in Toronto, as well as the addition of regional Saturday and Sunday editions of the Téléjournal newscast in Atlantic Canada. About a year, we began transforming RDI into a bona fide continuous news service. Given an increasingly competitive media environment and in the spirit of the unique mandate entrusted to RDI, our goal was to simultaneously strengthen our regional presence and develop a more seamless approach, while ensuring greater editorial consistency. Decompartmentalization of our workday 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. programming now allows us to provide better news coverage all across the country, live and regardless of where or when stories are breaking.

Of course, no matter how hard we try, we can't always please everyone. We continually strive to strike the ideal balance of news and information content across all of our networks. Yet we must ask ourselves: What would happen if we were not present and accessible to the largest possible number of TV viewers, right across the country? Would a private all-news network be the solution? What kind of content would the French speakers be given to watch? News from Toronto, Moncton, Vancouver and Calgary? International stories from Canadian reporters posted abroad? Not a chance! What we offer is unique.

In dealing with complaints, we make our responses public, when appropriate we acknowledge our mistakes and take the necessary corrective action. Incidentally, anyone can now view these complaints and our responses, as well as the ombudsman's annual reports, via the CBC/Radio-Canada website.

By consolidating our TV, radio and web services under a single-management structure, we have sought to clearly position the Radio-Canada mandate as an instrument of democracy and culture. This combined strength is what allowed us to maintain a news gathering presence in Afghanistan for 12 consecutive weeks, with seasoned reporters like Céline Galipeau, Alexandra Czacka and Frédéric Nicoloff filing stories. By the way, I am pleased to announce that we will again be reporting from the front in Afghanistan as of this fall.

On the radio, we are the only media organization to offer such first-rate news content at all hours of the day. And we know that this content is being appreciated by listeners: our radio newscasts, to cite one example, reached record audiences according to the latest BBM survey results, from winter 2007. Moreover, what television network besides Radio-Canada can boast 10 current affairs programs on its schedule, including 6 that air in prime time? You won't find any: current affairs programming is simply non-existent on the private networks. Nowhere else but on Radio-Canada will you find programs like La Facture, a magazine that covers the everyday problems faced by citizens. La Facture is seen by an average of more than 705,000 viewers each week. Then there is L'épicerie, a magazine program focused on food, which each week reaches an average audience of 658,000. Découverte, one of the only French television magazine programs in this country devoted to science, draws an average viewership of 600,000 on Sunday nights, and in recent weeks has even posted audience numbers near the one million mark.

This fall, having leveraged the combined expertise of our TV, radio, and web team, we will become the only Canadian French language TV network to air a weekly prime time newsmagazine on international affairs. This brand new program will be produced in front of a live studio audience with renowned guests and one-of-a-kind reporting that will enable us to better comprehend the world--the whole world and your world.

We provide Canadians with quality programming as witnessed by the many national and international awards bestowed upon our programs over the past year. Découverte, for example, won no less than four awards, including the Gémeaux for best public affairs program, and the CAID Prize at the International Science Film Festival in Athens. The program Dimanche magazine, which air on the Première Chaîne radio network, won a prestigious Peabody Award in 2006 for a report about climate change. And the series 109, produced in Toronto and aired on RDI, won a Gold Ribbon Award at the most recent convention of the Canadian Association of Broadcasters.

As we look to the future, Radio-Canada is called upon to create a public broadcasting space that is stronger than ever before. This is vitally important. In a multi-channel universe and given the phenomenal number of different news sources, we must create an "island of trust", where citizens can be secure in the knowledge that the news and information they get from their public broadcaster is reliable and credible. To be able to enrich citizens' democratic and cultural life, and properly pursue its mission as a public broadcaster, Radio-Canada must maintain its ability to promote social cohesion and be a reflection of true diversity.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for those presentations.

The first questioner, I think, is Ms. Marleau.

Okay, go ahead, Mr. Scott.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I guess she's deferring.

Welcome to the witnesses.

First of all, I have to apologize. Last Thursday I made some reference that the national CBC didn't give enough attention to the legislature in Fredericton. That afternoon a deer walked into the legislature in Fredericton. I don't know how you did it, but your attention to detail is appreciated.

I have a couple of things. First, we've had an awful lot of discussion about advertising or not in the context of the broadcaster generally. What effect does the advertising that exists on English language television--I'm specifically speaking to that here--have on the decisions taken in the context of news?

I was watching yesterday, fretting over the well-being of Paris Hilton. On the question of distinctiveness, you can rest assured that we can get that other places.

So what effect does the need to have good numbers have on those kinds of decisions?

[Tony Burman]

Well, first of all, I assume your reference to Paris Hilton was metaphorical. The CBC, and I know this is shared by Radio-Canada, is aggressively hostile to the coverage of those stories. I won't bore you with the many examples over the past several months, or even recent years, of where we have been totally offside in contrast to American commercial cable, and to a certain extent Canadian cable. Toward those stories, our indifference and what I sense from you are the same.

The public broadcaster must do what it can do to expand its audience, to connect with as many Canadians as possible, but within reason and not at the expense of quality. We have never been indifferent to the size of our audience. I think the balancing act for us has always been how to provide a range of programming and to ensure that we don't sacrifice quality in the search of numbers and the search of ratings.

As far as I'm concerned, the connection of advertising with news and current affairs doesn't exist. I've been with the CBC in senior positions for about 20 years, and I can't remember one decision I made or my colleagues made that focused on trying to get audiences so that advertisers were happier with us. There is a firewall in our organization.

So I don't think that's an issue for us--advertising. What is an issue is that if we as an organization didn't have a large number of Canadians watching us or listening to us or reading us, people like you would be quite unhappy with the place of CBC and Radio-Canada in Canada. It's a balancing act.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

It wasn't metaphorical. I was watching yesterday, and we had a lot of Paris on Newsworld yesterday.

[Tony Burman]

With respect, I think the fact that she is going to jail is of interest to a lot of our audience. I think our coverage of that was limited to that.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Again, it's a question of distinctiveness. If we wanted this, we could find it someplace else.

The other part has to do with cbc.ca and the text nature of it. I had a forum with kids in my riding about this exercise. One of the things they brought to my attention--I hadn't thought of it, because I grew up on newspapers--was the idea of seeing it in text and sort of seeing it like an online newspaper, as against what you think of in terms of audio and visual. They were the ones who quickly asked why a medium that is basically, historically, radio and television is aspiring to become a newspaper. I'm sort of taking it directly from their perception to you. They're looking for something much more visual, much more like they would expect. I'm just curious about your response to that.

[Alain Saulnier]

If I may, I would like to clarify one thing.

It is important to consider the CBC's website, whether it is CBC.ca or Radio-Canada.ca, like a set of content proposals. If you visit the site this morning, you will be able to see and hear audio and video reports, you will be able to listen to last night's Le Téléjournal again, and you will also be able to choose from various programs on-demand, which will allow you to re-listen to public affairs programming that was broadcast over the last few days.

This is clearly not a newspaper. It is quite simply a format that allows people to understand what audio and video content is being offered on these sites. It is from that perspective that we really must try and appreciate what we call the multimedia universe in its entirety. We will no longer be able to listen to radio and watch television as we have done over the last few years. You will be able to see programming on your iPod, on the web or also on your telephones, to such a degree that the CBC absolutely must go in that direction so that the wealth of its contents—and I'm also thinking about the content that the Radio-Canada side has to offer—can be accessible to the greatest number of people. Those under the age of 35, in future, will get more and more of their information from the Internet.

How can we make sure that the CBC's contents, in which we invest a great deal of money and for which we have all the necessary expertise, is accessible to the greatest number of people? That is more or less what we are gambling on.

[Tony Burman]

Can I just add to that?

As of this past Monday, there was a significant revamp of the CBC news online site. I think you would see, and I think the kids you referred to would see, a far greater emphasis on both video and audio. That is the beginning of what I think will be a very significant kind of transformation of cbc.ca over the next several weeks. I think as resources permit, as Alain indicated, we'll be quite conscious of ensuring that the richness of video and audio is also a central part of our online service.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you. That will be appreciated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for that.

We'll go to Mr. Kotto.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning.

I would like to continue on the subject that Mr. Scott raised. We are in the midst of a technological revolution, with emerging technologies. Are you making sufficient efforts to reach out and educate the population, young people as well as old, in order to encourage them to go see the contents that you have on these new platforms? How are you doing so?

That is my first question.

[Alain Saulnier]

There are several ways to draw young people to Radio-Canada. For example, our station broadcasts radio programs 275-Allô and Ados-Radio every evening from 7:00 to 7:30 p.m. on the Première Chaîne radio network. From this platform, we invite young people to follow up on other platforms such as the web, where these shows are mentioned.

During television shows, we invite people to visit the Internet to obtain more information about the program's contents. Radio-Canada is the current leader in terms of providing rich and diversified content on all of its platforms. We were the first to provide contents on iPod. Do you know which one of the two most downloaded programs on iPod are currently? It is the show called Les Années lumière, which is broadcast on Radio-Canada's radio station.

This means that people are taking the time to download a two-hour radio show and listen to it when they feel like it. It's an invitation to young people to seek contents that they do not necessarily have time to listen to when they are first being presented on the Première Chaîne.

We have to use all of the outlets that exist. From now on, young people will no longer have to sit through a show at the hour we choose; they will watch or listen to it at the time that suits them best. It is up to us to fulfil this need. This is especially true for young people under the age of 30.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

How are you raising the awareness of so-called dinosaurs—let's call them that— those who are reluctant to embrace new technology, in order to draw them to contents being presented on these new platforms?

[Alain Saulnier]

Radio-Canada's website, Radio-Canada.ca features commentary made by Mr. Bruno Guglielminetti that allows us to understand how new technologies are being developed. This fall, a component targeted to young people on this same website will deal with these topics. There are specific themes that we intend to develop over the fall. There will also be a theme about the environment.

We have to be very proactive in this area. We need to invest in these platforms to offer contents to people of all ages and to encourage them to listen and watch us more and more.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

In Quebec, someone from the circus community said Only the sky is the limit. Can you tell us what are the main stumbling blocks to your reaching an ideal situation in terms of information?

[Alain Saulnier]

Are you talking about television or radio?

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Given the limited time I have to ask my question, I'm referring mostly to television and radio.

[Alain Saulnier]

Perhaps Tony could also answer that question. I, for one, believe that CBC/Radio-Canada must develop strategies specific to each form of media. For the radio, we all know that prime time is in the morning and late afternoon when we reach the largest audience. Shows that are broadcast during these hours are generally regional programs that serve local communities, but are also enriched with national or international content.

The strategy of radio stations consists of being increasingly open to the world. The best service to Francophones here in Canada is to provide them with access to the world. They must have increased access to international content, in order to be strong and to develop as a society. We believe that these prime time hours must be further developed.

The challenge with television is different. Television is developed within a mixed financial system, that is subsidized through a combination of government financial support and advertising dollars. It is not always easy to work within such a system. In terms of information, we try to offer the best. Sylvain Lafrance and myself have taken the stance of pushing for greater cultural content and quality international news.

Our challenge is to strengthen democracy and culture, and we intend to do so.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming this morning.

Throughout our hearings we've discussed a number of times pressures from advertising on news, issues of bias in news, and what stories are chosen. I've been thinking a lot about the pressure on a public broadcaster. The BBC was shaken to the foundation over the Andrew Gilligan story and whether or not the dossier was sexed up. But clearly the BBC was faced with a direct frontal attack by the Prime Minister's Office. It would do anything it had to do to get that story killed. And in the end, a journalist lost his position and the head of the BBC was tossed. History seems to have vindicated the BBC's original story.

I'm looking at issues with the CBC. The CBC isn't nearly as independent and financially secure as the BBC. I was thinking of the Terry Milewski story on the whole APEC summit. Susan Delacourt wrote that it was Milewski who was solely responsible for pushing APEC to the top of the news agenda through his dogged release of the leaked documents and his continuing attention to the APEC issue. Yet the PMO launched a right-in-your-face assault on CBC, and Milewski got the bounce as well.

How do you choose to take on government when biting the hand that feeds you could be problematic?

[Tony Burman]

If I could correct you, Terry Milewski did not get the bounce. He's still an incredibly--