Canadian Heritage Committee on June 20th, 2006

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Should -- and I say should -- the new government initiate consultations and studies with a view to developing a new museum policy, how likely is it, in your opinion, that its findings will be similar to those contained in a report stemming from round table discussions held on June 28 and 29, 2005? I believe you participated in these discussions.

[John McAvity]

From the perspective of the museum community, I think the chances are the same. Our needs have not changed from one government to another. Our needs are constant, and we've stated what they are to you.

I do also want to say, though, that we've had very close relationships with the minister, both in her life in opposition and now as minister. We've met with her, we've been very encouraged, and we're hopeful that with your support, the government will move on this very quickly. I think we're so close to fruition on this that there's a great opportunity for you, as parliamentarians, and for all of us, to do a great job and to have it done.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

What kind of relationship have you established with the new Minister of Canadian Heritage? Have you connected on this issue?

[John McAvity]

We have met with her. She is very committed. She is very interested in it. She has encouraged us. She has asked us some questions, and we've responded to those questions.

I think she is very much on side, but she needs a little time to study the file, to be comfortable with it. You know, she has not been there very long.

But we've certainly had the right signals from this government. The Conservative Party, during the election, looked at our proposals and made a very strong commitment. We can share that with you, but they've committed to moving this file forward as soon as possible.

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

The art of governing is also the art of acting for the good of the State. This statement also applies to museums, where a non-partisan stand is warranted. This was true in the case of Afghanistan. The Conservative government did not make the decision to send troops on this mission. However, the Conservative government lived up to the Liberals' commitment.

However, since it's likely that it will be some time yet before we have a majority government, are you not worried that, should the Conservatives find themselves back on the opposition benches...

I'm merely speaking hypothetically. I don't wish anyone ill.

Do you think that with this new government, all of the work undertaken on the museum file will be thrown out?

[An hon. member]

A quick point of order, Mr. Chair--

[Maka Kotto, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I was merely speaking hypothetically.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

No, that's an unfair question.

[John McAvity]

Let me respond in a non-hypothetical way. That is, if we don't see an increased investment and a new policy orientation and we're appearing before you in another year or two, we're probably going to tell you about more museums that have closed.

We've had about half a dozen or more that have closed--le Musée d'art INUIT Brousseau, in Quebec; a museum in Nova Scotia; museums in British Columbia and in Parry Sound, Ontario. We'll be able to report on more artifacts that are lost, or buildings and natural historic sites that have been lost. That's what our concern is.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I'd like to compliment our witnesses. You have a very tight organization that is doing a heck of a job for yourselves.

I say that because I was aware we were going to be having you as witnesses yesterday, and the very same day I received a letter from Roberto Rodriguez, who is the executive director of the Revelstoke Railway Museum in my constituency. He says, “Mr. Abbott, during the June 20 Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage meeting, we....” So he obviously was fully apprised of the fact that you were going to be here. I don't know how he got that information, I'm sure.

He makes an interesting point, though. He says:

Please appreciate that the housing, preservation and interpretation of a collection such as ours is difficult and expensive. We rely on admissions and gift shop sales to sustain our annual $600,000 operating budget and receive no federal funding at present. Although this allows us to keep the doors open, the ability to expand our facilities, hire professional staff, properly house and preserve our collections and develop new programs are all major challenges, made even more difficult by the apparent disinterest on the part of the government to adequately fund regional and technologically-based museums.

The reason that comment is very interesting is that the minister, you may know, also has on her desk a proposal from the Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa to spend almost three-quarters of a billion dollars.

He is faced with a $600,000 budget; he classifies himself as being a museum of science and technology; and we have this other demand. You can see the challenge the minister is faced with—all totally legitimate challenges.

My friend Garry Anderson at the Canadian Museum of Rail Travel in Cranbrook pointed out to me a couple of years ago that anytime you restore one rail car—we have about a mile and a half of passenger cars in Cranbrook all set to be restored, and a few of them have been—you accrue a cost of at least $1,500 a year, and that was a couple of years ago, just because you've restored it. Otherwise it just goes right into....

Oh, by the way, I have discovered in the intervening time that the minister signed the Young Canada Works program yesterday. So it is in the system.

My question is this. I was wondering if I could act like a matchmaker between yourselves and Ms. Sherwood, the executive director of our heritage group.

I don't know if presently, as the great group you are in terms of working this thing through, you have been making all your members aware of the current program the government has announced is available respecting the capital gains program.

Are you making them aware of it?

[John McAvity]

Yes, we've alerted them to it in our brief. We put bulletins out; we did one within hours of the federal budget's announcement.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Before my friends get all wound up here, let me say that my bringing up this topic does not imply any connection between this and whatever further government funding there may be. I'm just going to the issue that there is that funding available.

The second part of the question, though, is, have you been able to work it through so that a dummy like me would be able to take a look at the information and say, this is how I'm going to do it, this is how I'm going to go out and work with people?

[John McAvity]

It's actually very straightforward. It's very simple, it's a wonderful thing, and we're very pleased with that initiative. In fact, there are some excellent tax incentives already in place.

The challenge for the museum community, as somebody mentioned earlier, is that most of the small museums do not have the ability, do not have the expertise, in terms of fundraising. The big institutions, we expect, will benefit from this. The Vancouver Art Gallery and the Royal Ontario Museum have fundraisers, but the small institutions don't.

The other day, a very interesting study came out on charitable giving in Canada that showed the very smallest percentage of charitable giving, less than 1%, goes to arts and culture. And of that 1% even, we're probably way down there at the very bottom. So we need a little help. We need the tax incentives, thank you very much, but we also need the developmental assistance to be making the cases--

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

And the training, I would suggest.

[John McAvity]

Yes. We fully believe museums should not depend on the federal government or the provinces, on any one source. They're much better off when they have a broad, diversified sense of support and they start developing endowments and long-term supports.

You can help us a great deal there. You've helped universities with chairs, long-term chairs; you could be helping us with curators. We--I'm talking collectively here--could be...I think there's a great example in the universities, and that could be applied to curators, or collections, or conservators. We have conservators in museums, not--

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I know I'm on the record here, but what I will commit to this summer is--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Can it be short?

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Very short.

I'm going to go to the Revelstoke Railway Museum, to the Canadian Museum of Rail Travel, and I'm going to work through that program to help them recruit a life insurance salesman or a car salesman, or somebody in Revelstoke or Cranbrook who would be able to go out and do that on the basis of the program. I'm sure the Department of Heritage would be happy to work with your group to get some kind of a selling program available for the 2,500 museums.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I won't have enough for five minutes, so I'll say which topics that I think as a group we may want to explore beyond today, perhaps into the fall. One is why the government needs that much more time. We had the minister here a couple of weeks ago telling us she couldn't see a museum policy coming forward in the next year, when indeed the policy itself...all the stakeholders, including the government, seemed to be pretty well in agreement, and it was a matter, then, of bringing it forward for funding. My suspicion is that if it had come forward for funding, there would have been a positive answer--the amount we'll never know. Whether it's $75 million or more or less...you can stay awake at night dreaming about this.

For 2,500 museums...Mr. McAvity, it would take about seven years to visit them, if you visited one a day. It's a question Mr. Warkentin alluded to: Are there too many? I understand it's a harsh question to ask, but the question I want to drive at is, is there an accreditation mechanism of sorts for museums? If not, should there be one?

[John McAvity]

No and yes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

Who should run it?

[John McAvity]

I think the profession should run it. Some of the provinces have accreditation programs, such as Quebec and...oh, Ontario has standards, but--

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

If there were one, would there be a shrinkage in the number?

[John McAvity]

No, there wouldn't be a shrinkage in the number, but not all of them would be accredited, because many museums are at various standards. Many of them need to be updated very badly. We know that. They don't have the right facilities and so on. Our interest, as a professional organization, is to see them advance, to look and be better, be better in their public presentation but also be better with their professional standards behind the scenes.