Canadian Heritage Committee on Aug. 26th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome, everyone, on this lovely August afternoon. Not too often do we meet this early in the session, but this is a planning session today so that when we get back we can have things all set up, so that we can get right down to business once the House comes back in September. As I go forward, I guess I'm going to call the first meeting of the next session...well, I guess it's not. It's meeting 38 of the session we are already in.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), a meeting has been requested by four members of the committee, and the subject is this: “We, the undersigned members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, request that a committee meeting be called pursuant to Standing Order 106(4) to discuss the recent cancelling of federal cultural financial assistance programs.”

Would someone like to speak to the motion?

Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Unfortunately, Mr. Chair, this summer we have once more watched government cuts being made shamefully, not to say hypocritically and viciously. The industry affected is worth $84.6 billion and provides more than a million jobs. The excuse these people gave us was that a complete review was being done. You do not cut funds in that way when you are conducting a review. You wait until it is done and the report has been submitted, you study the report, then you hold discussions and you negotiate with the partners affected by the cuts. After that, you make decisions. These cuts were savage.

Clearly, Mr. Chair, those cuts were.... The way they were acting when they were calling us, even the stakeholders were amazed, because first of all they learned it from the back door. They were not aware of what was going on; all they knew is that we were cutting the funds.

This is why we decided to agree to the Bloc Québécois' request for this meeting. I offer my appreciation and congratulations to the Bloc's new heritage critic, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. Why did we decide to attend this meeting? Because we wanted to show that Parliament is working, of course, and, above all, that we will not be party to major announcements being made at 5 o'clock on Fridays when journalists' deadlines are past. Perhaps we should remember that we are in the age of round-the-clock information and that that kind of thing does not work.

But I am sure that the minister still will not be available. The rumour is that the Prime Minister is looking for an excuse to call an election. He is probably going to do so next Friday. Nevertheless, we want to show that this Parliament is working, that this is not a partisan committee, that we have worked well up to now and that we should continue to do our work.

Mr. Chair, we must come up with a list of witnesses today. The official opposition is certainly opposed to these cuts. A future Liberal government will not only arrange for these programs to be re-established, but it will also make it clear that, unlike the Conservative government, when we work with the cultural community, we are working with all Canadians, that we will not be narrow-minded, and certainly not dogmatic in our approach. For that, people are responsible. Ms. Verner, of course, should be here, but I have a nickname for her: “the number you have reached is no longer in service“. Minister David Emerson should also be here. He needs to be aware that culture is important. Culture is the area where Canada's best ambassadors are to be found. Given the outrageous way in which the Trade Routes and PromArt programs were scrapped, I feel that he owes us an explanation.

Internationally, I have learned that cultural attachés in our embassies have had their budgets cut and that they are going to become little more than trade attachés. Perhaps we must say that Canada's influence is significant, and if the government does not believe in the Grands Ballets Canadiens or in culture in general, it should say so and stop making these shameful cuts. Earlier, I said that this is an $84.6-billion-dollar industry. That is major. We have a Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage for a reason. We know that heritage is vital. Ministers Verner and Emerson must appear here.

In the aftermath of Bill C-10, it looks like phone calls are being made between departments and that everything is connected. I would really like to speak to Deputy Minister Jean-Pierre Blais so that he can explain to us how he makes his phone calls to members of the cultural community. I would also like Deputy Minister Judith Larocque to be here and for officials in international trade to come to speak to us. Most of all, given that Parliament is at the heart of our democracy and that we have a wonderful opportunity to play a role through our standing committees, I would like members of the cultural communities to come to this table to give us their point of view. In Montreal tomorrow, the cultural community is going to hold a huge demonstration organized by a grassroots coalition that has spontaneously come together. A similar demonstration is scheduled on the east coast, in western Canada and in Ontario. In a word, the cultural community is worried and Canadians are worried, and I think that it is our responsibility to make sure that Parliament deals with this issue. We are the people's representatives.

I want Parliament to work. I do not feel that it is likely that the ministers are going to make themselves available. They are surely going to claim that their schedules are too busy. I think that it is important to at least have this meeting today to dot every i and cross every t. The official opposition believes in culture and in our institutions. We do not believe that everything comes down to bank transactions. We are full partners.

We must also remember the history of culture in Canada and specifically in Quebec. Because of the establishment of Telefilm Canada, the NFB, the Canada Council, and organizations like them, our culture has spread and, specifically in Quebec, it has flourished. Exactly the same has happened in the other provinces. So I do not understand why the Conservative government is waging this campaign against the cultural community. For example, when there is...

what we call the F-word, they want to cut everything.

We are for freedom of expression and freedom of culture. We are going to work with all our partners, here at this table, to make sure that the witness list is as comprehensive as it can be, so that we can get answers to our questions. We want things to work. Usually, meetings take place when Parliament is in session, but given the urgency of the situation and the shameful way in which the government has gone about these cuts, this meeting must be held because extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

So we will be there and we will ask several questions. I think that as a start we need the minister who is in charge, the minister who made those cuts. Instead of having an excuse, everybody should be at the same place and we will ask all those questions to make sure they tell us--in front of us, honestly--that they don't believe in culture, and they're going to tell us why.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That was a really interesting diatribe--unfortunately, not based whatsoever on fact. However, I would like to cover some of the facts.

I think it's important that this committee understand the difference between a cut and a reallocation. In the 1990s we saw cuts, and I'll outline the cuts. I invite Mr. Coderre to go to canadiantheatre.com, where you can pull up their section on funding. I'll just read what it says. It talks about what a cut is.

It says: “In 1992 a report was presented by the Standing Committee on Communications and Culture which stated that, 'funding in the cultural sector had failed to keep pace with inflation.' Expenditures were actually increasing within the system, but real money was decreasing.” But it says: “In the 1995 budget”--a Liberal budget--“all bets were off. Arts funding was cut across the board: cultural infrastructure programs (-44%), multiculturalism projects (-71%), transfers to provinces for regional cultural development (-40%).” Those are cuts. That's what a cut is.

Now let's look at the record of this government. Spending in budget 2007-08.... I don't know if the Liberals read it; they didn't show up to vote on it. But in budget 2007-08, close to $2.31 billion was invested in Canadian Heritage and arts and culture. That is an increase of 8%. For people who aren't good with math, that's a $200 million increase over the last Liberal budget. That is an increase in spending in Canadian arts and culture. That's an increase in the investment made in Canadian artists. And we are seeing the benefits of that.

Mr. Chair, we can go across the board. We can look at Telefilm Canada, for example. For the film industry, $700 million has been invested into this sector. For Telefilm it is $84 million, and that's headquartered in Quebec. And 55% of that funding is spent in the province of Quebec--significant increases in that. For the National Film Board of Canada, headquartered in Quebec, again we're seeing significant investments made into that, $72 million. There are the tax film credits, $325 million; Canadian Television Fund, $280 million; Canada Council for the Arts, $13 million. That's just in the film industry alone.

We can go through all of this. We're seeing significant investments across the board in arts and culture in Canada. This government believes in the arts. I'm going to be attending the Toronto film festival. We see very significant developments going on there. We see the film industry in Canada blossoming under this government's investment.

This government has made it very clear that we support arts and culture. We have invested more than $200 million more than the last Liberal government--more, Mr. Chair, not less. Any contention made by the opposition that this government is somehow cutting the heart out of arts and culture.... I invite them to look at 1995 and at who cut the heart out of arts and culture in this country. It was never a Conservative government. The Conservative government has only seen fit to invest in the arts and culture in this country. We will continue to do so.

I invite them to look at the independent research conducted by CanWest Global. Just last weekend they released the reports on that. We have increased the funding to arts and culture across the board, and to the CBC--the CBC, from whose budget the Liberal government saw fit in 1995 to remove $400 million, so much money that the president of the CBC resigned. He felt he could no longer maintain the mandate of the CBC because the Liberal government didn't support it.

That's the truth. That's their record. Why we're here today I'm not sure.

Strategic reviews have to occur. Mr. Coderre would apparently keep funding every program in perpetuity. I guess that's the Liberal position--every program that's ever existed they will fund in perpetuity. How's he going to pay for it? His leader has already outlined $62 billion in deficit that he'd spend immediately, a massive new carbon tax. I'd love to know how he's going to fund every single program that's ever existed. If we're not going to reallocate funds to make sure we are making the proper investments in areas where we will get results, where we can support artists, where we can support Canadian arts and culture and move that entire industry forward, continue to expand the Canadian footprint on the global map....

That's what this government is about: getting results, supporting artists, and supporting the Canadian identity. And we're doing a heck of a job, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Ms. DeBellefeuille.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am pleased to be sitting on this committee as the Bloc Québécois' new heritage critic. I thank my colleagues, including Mr. Coderre, for their cooperation and for allowing this important meeting to take place. I especially want to acknowledge Mr. Harris, with whom I sat on the Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

I am going to draw a parallel between the situation we are experiencing here and the one we experienced at the Committee on Natural Resources. The method is the same. We cannot accuse the Conservatives of changing their tune. Quite the opposite; when they came to power, they abolished a number of programs that they said were performing badly or were poorly conceived. They cancelled energy efficiency programs simply to re-establish them a few months later under different names and with different criteria.

Now here they are, in the middle of the summer, with the Olympic Games going on, sneaking up behind artists and the cultural industry in Quebec and Canada to attack them. It is being done arbitrarily and crassly, unacceptably in our view. So today's working session is important, as is the need to prepare a witness list so that we can conduct a thorough study on the incomprehensible decision that the government has just made.

When I hear Mr. Del Mastro talk, I get the impression that he has not followed what has gone on in Quebec in the last two weeks. It is as if he had no knowledge of the hundreds of letters that I, as heritage critic, have received and that he too has likely received as a permanent member of this committee. I do not know if those here this afternoon are permanent members of the committee. We have received letters from all the great cultural associations in Quebec and in Canada, from artists, from musicians, from poets, from choreographers and from dancers. Every significant player in the cultural community has expressed anger and opposition.

And make no mistake, we are in touch with the interests of Quebeckers. We in the Bloc Québécois want to be their representatives and stand up for them. The Conservative government seems to be out of touch with today's cultural values and interests. I am quite comfortable with the list of witnesses that Mr. Coderre proposes. I really hope that Minister Josée Verner will come to testify and provide us with explanations. We still cannot understand her reasons at all, in fact. We would really like to understand the criteria that the government used when it decided to abruptly cut these programs for the cultural community. A number of positive comments were there to be read on the website. There were no recommendations to abolish any of the programs.

And why are the so-called strategic evaluations confidential? You do not cut programs with no explanation other than they do not work. These particular cases are putting the cultural community in a situation that threatens the organization of cultural events in Quebec, in Canada and overseas. Of course you know that a dance company tour does not get organized the day before they leave; it is part of a program. These programs are worked out one or two years in advance. What is happening now is affecting the community's stability and organization, and that is unacceptable. This is a community that showcases Quebec and Canada at home and abroad.

We want to understand the reasons for the cuts, especially the PromArt and Trade Routes programs. I have made myself familiar with the list of organizations and artists affected by these measures. I do not know how giving $1,500 to a poet can be considered a waste of money if it allows Quebec poetry to become better known in Europe or elsewhere in the world. These are small amounts, and for people who are only interested in figures, perhaps they seem insignificant and ineffective. But the total amount of money involved means that all artists will be penalized when it comes to promoting and expressing their art.

So, like my colleague Mr. Malo, I ask that this study be taken seriously because the community demands it. It is mobilizing as we speak and demanding answers from the government. As the opposition party that represents and stands up for the interests of Quebec, and specifically in this case the interests of artists and the cultural industry, we are going to demand that a number of witnesses appear, particularly Ms. Verner's deputy minister, Minister Verner, Mr. Emerson, all the officials who played a key role in the evaluations and, of course, the major players from many cultural organizations. I am thinking of the Association nationale des éditeurs de livres and of the Mouvement pour les arts et les lettres, to mention only two of Quebec's major organizations.

I have also noticed that several universities in Quebec are going to be affected by the cuts announced by the Conservatives. Behind the artistic expression of a cultural product, there is a whole research network. This allows Quebec and Canada to be in the forefront of knowledge on multimedia and other media, which allows the cultural community to flourish even more. Those universities will also surely be interested in coming to testify before our committee.

Those who know me—and I am specifically thinking of Mr. Harris—know that, as a member of Parliament, my first interest is the study, not playing party politics. My interest is in getting results and understanding a situation. This case really is about defending the interests of artists. Mr. Chair, I hope that our work will proceed calmly and collegially so that it is productive. It is my hope that it will result in the government being convinced to reverse its position and re-establish the programs that it has so cavalierly scrapped.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Ms. Nash.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm very pleased to be here today on behalf of the New Democratic Party. I come here this afternoon to bring the voice of artists from the city of Toronto.

I had a round table meeting with arts organizations this morning, and from that group of writers, producers, distributors, actors, various participants in the cultural sector, I want to say how devastating these cuts are to the arts community. There's no question that there were massive cuts during the 1990s, but I can tell you that these particular cuts that affect the commercialization and distribution of the arts, especially on the international scene, are absolutely devastating and ask us all this question: what image of Canada do we present, and do we care about Canada's international reputation when it comes to the arts? I can tell you that the groups I met with today were quite fearful that this is the tip of the iceberg and that there are more cuts to come, as difficult as these cuts are.

Mr. Del Mastro says that the Conservatives care about the arts. I'm sure they do care about arts and culture, but they care about the kind that they sanction. They want to be able to pick and choose and decide themselves who gets funded and who doesn't get funded. I don't believe the government should determine which films get made, which writers get supported, or which arts organizations continue to survive. I believe in arm's-length funding for arts organizations, and I think that's our democratic tradition.

The message I want to convey from those I met with this morning and from the many artists I have spoken with--people who have e-mailed me, phoned me, or contacted me since these cuts were announced--is to communicate, first of all, that the arts matter to Canadians. They're a part of who we are as a country, they're part of our sovereignty, they're a key part of our economy--I know that in the city of Toronto they're a huge piece of our economy—and certainly they're an important part of a healthy democracy. What has been so offensive to people is not that there is a review of arts funding--there's no disagreement that periodically you evaluate and decide that some programs will not be continued--but it is the arbitrary fashion of these cuts, that they were done in secret, with no consultation, with no public review. I can tell you from the people I met with this morning that it felt very much like a silencing of their voices. I think it's very damaging, not only economically but to a thriving, healthy arts community.

I want to add my voice to say that we should have hearings and a good public consultation before any action is taken. If there's nothing secret here, if this is about good accountability, then it should have a good process, and that process needs to restore faith in an arm's-length funding process that's in line with a clear arts policy for Canada, which today we do not have.

There's talk about good management and putting more money into things. I want to caution that we will continue to have writers who write and people who do their best to make films and create other forms of art, but if no one knows about it, then we will not be successful.

You can look at hugely successful cases like the Cirque du Soleil. When Monsieur Laliberté was just starting out, if he hadn't had a bit of help at the front end when he was just beginning, he wouldn't be so successful at this point with the Cirque du Soleil. How many people are there like that who get that support, that funding, that help, that boost, at the beginning of their career, or even throughout their career, that helps them develop their cultural expression, which then we can present to our country and to the rest of the world? So this kind of funding is absolutely essential.

Again, I want to reaffirm the need for a strong public process. We should have hearings. We should hear from the arts community themselves, and we should hear why the government is targeting certain programs where the problems are and if there are perhaps changes that could be made as opposed to a complete cancellation. So I would argue that there should be hearings and no cuts until we've had these hearings, and that we reaffirm a clear process for arm's-length funding and a clear arts policy for Canada.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is a first for me, as I've never had the privilege of sitting on this committee. It's also the first for the security committee, which I was privileged to sit on yesterday.

I thank Mr. Del Mastro for his excellent presentation and for pointing out that this is nothing new. As a matter of fact, we've seen this in the past and we've actually seen cuts. This is not a cut; this is more redistribution.

When I received my briefs and looked at the material, the huge pile of paper, I couldn't agree more with Mr. Del Mastro and disagree more with Mr. Coderre. This government has spent an enormous amount of money and has, in a sense, reallocated some of these funds. I think what we're looking at today is more reaction by this government to invest in priorities, and not necessarily priorities that we feel are priorities, but priorities that come as a result of agencies that are more successful, that have reached their objectives, or that have high administration costs and poor performance. That's part of the function of any government. As I said, Mr. Del Mastro did an excellent job of pointing those things out.

I'm looking at some of the announcements that we've made in the past. In March 2008 there was money spent on Quebec's 400th anniversary. The government supported first peoples' heritage, language and culture. Much was done with our first nations, with almost $700,000--the Inuit heritage fund, $190,000; the Inuit culture of Nunavut, $350,000, and I'm rounding off as it's actually more than that. The government announced funding for the Corporation de Développement Patrimonial Culturel et Touristique de Natashquan, $182,000; the New France Festival, $250,000. I can go on and on. These are just some of the funding announcements that we've made. There are 12 pages that prove a commitment by this government to continue in the important work of arts and culture.

We've done what we've said we would do as a government, and that is to be responsible in our mandate, to be sure that we continue to move forward to improve the works of the arts, and to make sure the money that is being spent is being spent in a wise and prudent way. It leads me to think, as I started to say in my opening remarks, that this is the second committee I've served on where our Prime Minister has laid out an olive branch basically to the opposition in saying that we absolutely must make Parliament work.

I've been very fortunate to serve on the industry committee, and that's actually the reason I'm here. It's going to gather on Wednesday. It's doing constructive work, work that parliamentarians are called upon and elected to do. This, to me, looks like just another example of the opposition's attempt to undermine what we're supposed to do as a government. I see a lot of useless time being spent. I would think that this particular committee would have much greater and important matters to study--things that the Canadian public would deem more necessary.

Again, I can go on and on about where we spend our money. The result is the same. As Mr. Del Mastro said, we have not decreased our spending; we've increased our spending. It appears to me that we're continuing on a path that we don't want to see happen.

So I'm a little disturbed about the direction and what the opposition is doing again. I would hope that in the discourse, the examples we bring forward, they could retract that and agree that the government has in actuality been very responsible with their spending practices, and we're going to continue to do so.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Scott.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Van Kesteren commented that people are afraid. Just the fact that he doesn't think this is a serious thing justifies some of the concern that is being expressed. In the arts community--and I'm talking about the broadest application of that, the people who organize the Harvest Jazz & Blues Festival in Fredericton or the East Coast Music Awards--they make travel money available to artists through these programs, and the papers in the region are full of comments about the damage this could do to those kinds of small-market festivals and artistic opportunities.

I think it's a legitimate subject for this committee to take up. Certainly no one who has called my office from the community, whether it was Fredericton, the Atlantic, or elsewhere in the country.... But I feel particularly responsible to Atlantic Canada because it is a big part of our economy, perhaps proportionally greater than any other part of the country on a per capita basis, and because it's small-market, they do take advantage of a lot of these programs. Both emerging artists, depending on where they come from within the region....

Ms. Nash mentioned that she'd had a round table. I have an ongoing arts advisory committee in my constituency. We meet very regularly, and to a person they're horrified. These are people from all political backgrounds and so on. They are suspicious, frankly, and I think it's no secret that these are born of an ideological disposition that is perhaps.... Funny enough, because generally speaking my view would be that the government doesn't believe in government enough, in this instance they believe in government too much, I think, in terms of having too much to say about what constitutes art, and having a disposition that would allow or cause some involvement to pick and choose. I think these things should be peer-reviewed, and that is one of the duties of most of these national programs, and that's one that has to be protected from any kind of censorship.

On the question of 1995, I think I'm the only one on this side who was here. Well, I think Dick was here in 1995, and he'll remember that Mr. Manning proposed a subamendment to the 1995 budget saying that we didn't cut fast enough or deep enough. So for people now to reflect on that 1995 budget in the way that happens regularly here simply is revisionist history. The reality is that I suspect that if Mr. Harris was in the House that day, he voted in support of that amendment to the budget, saying it didn't cut deep enough or fast enough--all of these things. So I would want that on the record, since I may be the only one here who remembers that, other than Dick.

Anyway, I think these are wrong-headed, and so does the artistic community in Atlantic Canada. They should be reconsidered. There should be a public discussion about this, because it is important, and we have to hear from the minister. I'd like to hear from the gentleman from the Prime Minister's Office who referred to PromArt, I think it was, as a boondoggle. I'd like that explained. Is that accurate? If so, does the government actually believe these programs have no value, that they would be referred to in that way? Or give him a chance to correct the record if it's not true. And if it is true, on what basis do people believe these programs are not good? It has not been a public debate, but it should be, and this is the committee that should be entertaining that debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Harris.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm sure Mr. Scott will remember back in the nineties, when the Liberals were cutting their programs. Most certainly, as fast as they were cutting some programs, they were creating new ones. When we were calling for real net cuts to be made, the Liberals were basically doing a saw-off, and as they cut money in one program, they would start it up in a new one and increase taxes along the way to somehow try to pay for their indiscretions in managing the finances of the country.

I'm listening to the presenters, and in fact I do appreciate what some of the presenters, Madam DeBellefeuille and Ms. Nash, have to say. I know that in their hearts they're genuinely concerned about the arts. I know that in the parts of the country they come from the arts are certainly important, and they're advocates for those people who participate in the arts. I truly believe that in their presentations they mean everything they say.

With all due respect, while I understand their sincerity, when we took office this government committed to have a new way of managing the tax dollars of Canada, and of course strategic reviews are happening in every department, including this one. By contrast, realistically there will never be an opportunity for the Bloc to show Canadians how they can manage the tax dollars that come into Ottawa, and realistically, likely there will never be an opportunity for the NDP to show Canadians how they prudently manage tax dollars that come into the country. So from a sincerity point of view regarding what Madam DeBellefeuille and Ms. Nash are talking about, I certainly embrace that. From an accountability point of view, when we're talking about what things cost, I think their arguments are a little unrealistic, because they don't have to balance the books and they never will have to.

On the other hand, we have the Liberals on the other side, who have a history of bad management of the tax dollars of this country. Mr. Coderre, bless his heart, always gives us good material. He talked about a radical 5 p.m. Friday announcement regarding the rationalization of some funding within Heritage Canada. As a matter of fact, it works out to about 2% of the total budget, 2.3% of $40 million, to Canadian Heritage. Talk about radical announcements. At least we made them.

Coincidentally, regarding the $40 million that's missing from the sponsorship fund, they didn't make the announcement that it was missing or misspent or given to their friends or put into the Liberal campaign coffers; they actually got caught. And isn't it coincidental that that was $40 million as well? The $40 million that they misspent, shifted off to secret bank accounts and coffers of their friends, was simply missing from the coffers of Canada, no longer able to be used to the benefit of Canadians and the arts and culture in this country because it wasn't there anymore. It was missing from the coffers of the government, so the government couldn't spend it. I think hypocrisy is the name of the game here.

I appreciate Mr. Coderre most times. The sad thing is that he was smack in the middle of that sponsorship program when the $40 million went missing--smack in the middle of it--and now he sits here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Scarpaleggia, on a point of order.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I've sat on this committee with you, Mr. Chair, for a number of years, and you've never let the committee descend to this level. I think you should be proud of that record, but I would urge you to maintain that record.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I was just thinking that it was getting quite personal.

I think we'll carry on. Are you just about finished, Mr. Harris? I think you have a bit more.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Yes, I just thinking that the opposition are disregarding the commitment that the Conservative leader, our Prime Minister, made to Canadians, which was to do business in a new way, that we would be accountable and prudent in the way we managed the tax dollars of this country. And we're following through with that in the strategic reviews.

The affected programs we're talking about either (a) had met their original objectives; (b) had similar kinds of support and training available from other sources; or (c) were using funds to manage the program, such as with high operating costs, which is not prudent spending of taxpayers' dollars, instead of helping the artists as it was originally designed to do.

These program adjustments were part of a prudent fiscal management of the taxpayers' dollars and part of an overall strategic review that's happening, and should happen, in every single department of this government. And it will happen under the Conservative government and Prime Minister Harper. This is something Canadians asked for in 2006, when they elected the Conservative government, and that Prime Minister Harper and our government is delivering on.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Unlike my colleagues opposite, I have sat on this committee for some time. I have some knowledge of the history of arts funding in this country by various governments. I have to say that I am presently less than impressed by what I hear. I fully support the list of witnesses that my colleague has presented. I feel that it would be very useful for this committee to deal with the mattter because it arose so unexpectedly. We find out, in the middle of the summer, that the government is reducing or completely eliminating various programs, even though they have been evaluated and found to be very useful for a number of communities in the past.

I support the list, and I would even add the names of two people whose comments have appeared in the last two days in the local newspaper, the Ottawa Citizen. I am referring to Keith Spicer, a great, internationally-renowned Canadian who well understands how useful a flourishing culture is internationally, and to Michael Geist.

Michael Geist is a professor at the University of Ottawa, and his take is somewhat different from that of the artist community. His take is that one of the programs eliminated, the digitalization of our collections, is an extremely important thing. It affects our competitiveness and our ability to present ourselves and our cultural product abroad. Even though Canada was at one time leading in this effort, we're now falling behind. The European Community, for instance, is investing $200 million to achieve some of that objective, whereas we're just nowhere anymore.

So these two I would add as possible witnesses to the list of those mentioned by my colleague and others. I think it's important that we hear them.

I want to pick up on what my colleagues across the way have said—that this is a reallocation. This confirms that all of these are programs that have been cut. They're not denying it, but there are questions that arise from it. What are we reallocating to? What criteria are we using? Is this a program that's going to be created? I know Madame Verner alluded to it after she was asked by a number of people, for a number of days, what was going on. She said, “There's something else coming.” I think it would be important for the artistic community of this country to have an input into whatever is being concocted.

He also went into the budget. That's interesting. I want to come at this from a slightly different angle. He accused a colleague of mine of wanting to fund programs in perpetuity. Because they exist, he said, we want to fund them in perpetuity. I say no to that. However, once Parliament has approved, through the budget or estimates, the spending for certain programs, then one would expect that those programs would go forward. So I would like to ask this committee whether there is an abuse of executive authority here.

We've seen this in the past. Programs exist, whether by parliamentary appropriation, by law, like the Law Reform Commission, or by agreement with third parties, as with the volunteer organizations, and this government comes along and by executive fiat cancels whole programs, agreements, funding of legally instituted organizations. Is there an abuse of executive authority in cutting programs once they have been approved by Parliament? I think this is a very serious question. I think parliamentarians and Canadians would want a bit more insight into this. If this is the case, then the government can cancel any program without doing any evaluation whatsoever. If the programs exist, parliamentarians of all parties should have a chance to look at the evaluations. If the government can cancel any program that has been approved by Parliament through estimates or in the budget, then where does it stop?

I think this is a very serious question. I suspect we're bordering—if we're not already over the line—on abuse of executive authority in cancelling programs that have been approved and for which the spending has been approved by the Parliament of Canada. I would ask our research staff to suggest a number of readings on this or witnesses who could help us to explore this question. I think Canadians are getting a taste of what the executive authority of this government means to programs of Canada and to the future orientation of our country.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Malo.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

This study that the committee is preparing to undertake is very important because, given the comments we have heard since the minister's announcement this summer, we see that it deals with questions that have not been answered. So I feel that the list of witness proposed a little earlier, including, of course, people from the department and the two ministers involved, would certainly provide answers. That is what we want.

We have heard the minister's explanations for some time, but we are having trouble understanding the answers she is providing. Clearly, this study is important, if only to find out about the timing of the announcement. Why in the middle of the summer? Was the study on the relevance of the programs finished in the middle of July? That hardly sounds plausible to me. Why decide to make this announcement when people were on holiday at the cottage, when their attention was elsewhere and they were not up to speed on current affairs. The only reason is to try and slide the issue through and move as quickly as possible to something else. I think that we have to get that question answered.

The minister and the members opposite say that funds will be reallocated. We would like answers about that too. Where will they be reallocated? The only thing we know at the moment is that cuts have been made. We are told that there will be money for international promotion. But this is a small and vulnerable community and, when cuts are made, people need to be quickly reassured. There was either too much haste, or the other possibility is that money is going to be reallocated into other areas that the government prefers. We have seen this government's liking for military spending. Is the money that we would like to see go to culture going to be diverted to other areas of government activity?

Earlier, Mr. Harris even seemed to say that these expenditures were unnecessary. So the Conservative government manages finances by cutting useless expenses. He seems to be telling us that the programs affected by these cuts were useless. Is that not contradicting his colleague who said the government is firmly committed to culture and has a strong involvement in it? They are trying to have it both ways again. So perhaps this study will provide us with some clarifications. If artists and the cultural industry were as clear that the Conservative government is committed to promoting and enhancing culture, they would certainly not be organizing a demonstration tomorrow. If they were as convinced that the Conservatives were passionate defenders of culture, I feel that they would not be afraid at all and that they would be waiting like good little artists for the cuts to be reallocated to other parts of the cultural community.

Mr. Van Kesteren said that this committee should be doing other things than discussing cultural programs. If that does not clearly mean that, in his view, the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage should not concern itself with culture, I do not know what it means. It worries me and I am sure that it also worries Mrs. DeBellefeuille, the Bloc Québécois' heritage critic. I think that we should start this study very quickly and begin hearing from witnesses so that we can bring some clarity to the Conservatives' intentions on cultural matters. It is important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I suppose I'll make a bit of a suggestion once I get to the end, but I want to address a few things that have been said since I spoke.

Mr. Coderre indicated that he doesn't believe a program should ever be reviewed, and he would fund every program into perpetuity. We heard Mr. Bélanger say that reviewing any programs and failing to ever make reallocations of funds is an abuse of executive authority. What a misdirected, misguided government that would be if you could never take a look at a program.

We live in a changing world, where the way the arts are promoted and perceived...in fact, what is considered art today may be quite different at some point in the future. The government must be able to make adjustments. We have to make sure we're being effective. As I indicated before, making reallocations, focusing government, and ensuring that we are getting results and being very proactive on the file doesn't mean we're reducing funding. We've already indicated that we're increasing funding substantially.

Mr. Scott mentioned festivals and the importance of festivals. We agree, and that's why we added $30 million for summer festivals. That's supporting festivals right across this country, including in Atlantic Canada and, I'm certain, the riding of Mr. Scott. This government made that investment because we know that the promotion of arts and giving entertainers a stage so they can put their talent in front of an audience is so important and crucial to the advancement of Canadian arts. That's why we made that very investment. I know that in ridings throughout the Maritimes, Ontario, Quebec, and the west, that specific investment is yielding real results.

We invested $110 million in Quebec's 400th anniversary this summer, and what a tremendous investment that was. I had the opportunity to take in some of the celebrations in Quebec, and the celebration of the founding of Quebec City. It's interesting that today we have the Bloc Québécois here making very clear statements that federal government investments made in Quebec are so crucial for the Quebec arts industry, and I couldn't agree more. I think the investments being made by the national government are really producing tremendous results in Quebec and right across Canada. I'm glad to see that the Bloc Québécois is here making that very clear statement of support, that the substantial investment of more than $2.3 billion that our government is making is having a profound impact.

I also enjoyed listening to what Ms. Nash had to say. She talked about commercialization and distribution. She talked to artists and producers. We have to take a look at a number of things.