We have a point of order.
Evidence of meeting #38 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #38 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
My apologies for interrupting Mr. Del Mastro, but since I speak only French, I miss half of what he is saying when he speaks quickly. The interpreter has difficulty keeping up with him. When it is my turn to speak, I go slowly so that he can understand me. He uses the interpretation as well, because he may not understand the French. I am just asking him to slow down a little.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
I have so many good things to say. I'll try to slow down a little. I apologize.
Ms. Nash talked about artists, producers, commercialization, distribution, and so forth. I want to talk a little about Bill C-61 and how this government has moved to protect artists and conceptual property rights--to protect artists so they get value for their goods. That's something our government has moved forward on. Although the previous government signed on years and years ago to protect artists, they abdicated that responsibility and did nothing about it. We are moving on that, and I would suggest--
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, the employee of the month of the PMO should know that this is not about Bill C-61. This is about cuts to programs. It's specific. We don't have the legislation on Bill C-61, so I think he's out of order.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
I think it is debate, so that can be mentioned. We're talking about copyright, and this committee has dealt with copyright before. In any of the meetings I was at, copyright was very important to many artists. So we'll continue.
Don't use the name of the bill.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you.
Of course when I speak about copyrights and protecting the products of artists against theft really, obviously that's support for the arts. That's what we're talking about here. We're talking about how we support arts, promote arts, and ultimately this government's support for arts and culture. I understood that's what we were here to talk about today. Certainly copyright protection is critically important to our arts and culture sectors in Canada. That's why our government feels very passionately that we need to protect and balance that.
As I indicated, Mr. Chair, we have a great story to tell on this. The last thing I would want to do is attempt to run and hide from that story. I'd be happy to hear from witnesses. I've got a lot of witnesses I'd like to call, because a lot of people have been the beneficiaries of this government's investments into the arts. Frankly, as I said, we've got a great story to tell on this.
Ms. Nash indicated she'd like to hear some witnesses; I'd like to hear them as well. I'd be very happy to hear from the minister, because again I think we have a great story to tell. We've made an awful lot of key investments. We continue to move this file forward, and we are reaching broader audiences than Canadian artists have ever reached before. Canadian artists are expanding their footprint globally. We see more and more Canadian artists making a very substantial impact on the world stage. Furthermore, I believe we also have a reawakening of Canadian pride in this country, and that's because key investments are allowing artists to reach Canadians in a very profound way. I'm very proud of that.
As I said, I look forward to having people in to talk about these key investments made by this government, the 8% increase we've made into arts and culture. I'd invite people to come in so we can talk about how this is benefiting them.
And obviously the support we've had from the Bloc Québécois in getting our first two budgets passed so we could deal with the fiscal imbalance and flow more money to artists to support Quebec and the support we had from the Liberals on the last budget has enabled us to be able to make these key investments.
Thank you.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I think it's a question of credibility. It's not credible for a Prime Minister and for this member opposite, Mr. Del Mastro, to suggest over and over that their legislation was successfully passed through the parliamentary session that ended in June and then, three months later, when Parliament is not sitting, to say that Parliament is dysfunctional and we have to ditch a piece of legislation that was implemented by this government.
So I think it's about credibility. But let me get back to the question of the arts. That's also a matter of credibility. You will recall that over the years the party opposite and its predecessor, the Reform Party, frequently made a point of calling for withdrawal of the federal government from the arts sector. You will recall that it was in the party platform of some of the members opposite that the CBC should be privatized, that it should be sold. When they saw that this didn't fly with the Canadian public, they compromised and said that only CBC Television should be sold and we would keep CBC Radio. Then, when they saw that didn't fly, they said they would lay off the CBC for a while but they wouldn't pay much heed to the report that this committee worked so hard on and released in June or May.
So it's a question of credibility. I'm glad my colleague Andy Scott took the time to travel from Fredericton to be here today and share his corporate memory with us. I'm pleased he reminded us that when the Liberal government had to deal with the massive deficit—$42 billion—left by a previous Conservative government, the party opposite thought we were moving too slow on arts cuts. I didn't know that, and I thank the member for bringing it up.
Mr. Del Mastro said that life is about change, that the world is always changing. I thank him for that platitude. I've heard it said that the government loves heritage—it's living art that it's afraid of, because that can be subversive. We've seen the government's reaction with Bill C-10.
Juxtaposed with all of these previous statements is a kind of Orwellian dialogue. They strike a “stand up for Canada” pose, while devolving as much as possible. There used to be a time when an MP like me could promote a municipal infrastructure project at the federal level. The federal government had some say as a third party in these expenditure plans. But the federal government is washing its hands of that and not taking its responsibility.
So we stand up for Canada while we devolve responsibility. We say, in that typical Orwellian fashion, that dismantling a program is not a cut. We're just redistributing. If we're redistributing, let's see what we're redistributing towards. Yes, festivals are important. Absolutely, they're important. We remember that the opposition was pushing the government hard to fund festivals in Quebec and elsewhere. They're important, but so is sending artists abroad who represent the cutting edge in art. That's important too.
But I remember that when we were in government, every time a contingent of artists went abroad the Conservative opposition was quite upset. It was a wasteful expenditure. How dare we send artists abroad, maybe put them up in a hotel, and let them visit a Canadian embassy somewhere. That was a scandal at the time. I sat on the government operations committee and watched the Conservative Party attack attempts to send artists abroad to showcase Canada. It wasn't a good idea then. Today they say, “Well, we're not so against touring programs”, yet they cut them.
I remember, Mr. Chair--and I believe you were an elected member then--when we dealt with the second phase of copyright reform. I wasn't a member myself; I was an assistant to the chair of the committee at the time, you will recall. The Conservative Party wasn't in favour of neighbouring rights, if I recall correctly. The big push at the time was to bring in neighbouring rights so the royalties would flow not only to creators or writers of music, but performers. I remember that the Conservative opposition was against that.
Speaking of copyright, as we all know, the Conservative government is committed to seeing that bill dealt with in the industry committee, not in the committee that is most concerned about arts and culture in this Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
I remember there was a lot of kicking and screaming before we got to that unanimous report.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
There's been a lot of kicking and screaming here today too.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
So I think it's a question of credibility. We've noticed some patterns, and that's why the artistic community is very wary and rightfully upset about the government's recent decisions.
If we're going to talk about redistributing expenses, I'd like to see what the government has in mind. Are we going to take moneys from small but effective programs and lump them into spectacles that are meant to showcase the government's values? I don't know where we're going with this, but to just announce that we're going to cut and then speak vaguely of redistribution is a little misleading.
I'll stop on that point.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
I have four more speakers on the list. I think we've banged back and forth on everyone here pretty well today.
I'll hear from the four speakers who are on the list, and at the end of that I'm going to make a suggestion.
Mr. Coderre.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Mr. Chair, I could respond in a personal way to my friend Dick Harris, but I will simply say to him that his sticks and stones do not concern me in the slightest. What concerns me greatly is that the cultural community is dying at the moment. A Conservative government means the death of Canadian cinema, not just Quebec cinema.
It's not a Quebec thing.
And by the way, for the record,
the $100 million to celebrate the 400 th anniversary of Quebec City did not come from the Conservatives. The contribution had already been announced. The colour of the ribbon around it may have changed, but it came from the Liberals.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
It's not “whatever”; it's taxpayers' money, by the way.
Programs like Trade Routes and PromArt are vital. They are tools we're providing to our embassies so they can help the cultural sector and help Canada itself to expand.
When Robert Lepage goes to London for the premiere of The Far Side of the Moon, when he is recognized by Peter Gabriel with extraordinary cultural and economic implications, we are almost dealing with an essential service. There are a host of examples, such as The 7 Fingers, the Cirque Éloize and the Royal Winnipeg Ballet. I do not know if the B Team over there is at all familiar with these programs, but make no mistake, this is an essential service. A Liberal government will ensure that culture has the tools it needs to become known and promoted around the world.
Capacity building is important. When we're talking about sustainability projects, when we're cutting 347 organizations, and when we're cutting six major cities outside Quebec, it's a Canadian thing, not just a Quebec thing. It's national.
Do you know what it means? It means that not only in the big centres but also in every region of the country, those people who were counting on the Government of Canada as a full partner have had their trust compromised. It's not just a matter of transaction and money; it's dealing with a full partner. Culture is for every Canadian citizen and we're all part of it.
So if we're cutting those programs, it has nothing to do with reallocation or re-evaluation. It's all about inquisition. That's the main problem. We can talk about money, but I want to talk about governments. I want to talk about the importance of programs with the government as a full partner. It's the same thing with CBC and all those institutions. That's why it's important to discuss not only the accountability and what they've done with the money, but also what was behind it.
Mr. Chair, when we see the Conservative Party media notes explaining in partisan terms that one of the reasons for the cancellation of the PromArt program is that Mr. Lewis is left-leaning and that a person is described as a general radical, we realize that this is beginning to look like the film Guilty by Suspicion. I have already asked Minister Verner: “You are not turning into Duplessis, are you?“, but now we are going to have to ask Prime Minister Harper:
“McCarthy, get out of there.” We have a major problem. This is not the kind of Canada I want to live in. I don't want to be a minister—and I've been one of them—who would cut the money because I don't like a person or because I don't feel he's thinking like me. That's what it's all about. Every time you see the F-word, we should cut it? And then what? This is a major problem.
Committee work is not just about accountability. It's about what kind of Canada you want to live in. Government has to be accountable and tell us clearly what was behind this. We have the spin doctor from PMO talking about a boondoggle. So investing in culture is a boondoggle?
Some programs must be kept. We always conduct reviews, but we are not savages. We have to work collaboratively with organizations. The Institut national de l'image et du son, INIS, located in Montreal, is an exceptional organization that is now 12 or 15 years old. Frédéric Ouellet writes the excellent TV series Grande Ourse on Radio-Canada. Other producers from the Institut have proudly shown how rich our Quebec culture is, just as it is all across Canada.
They are going to say that they cut the funds because there was no return on investment. The Heritage minister, who we all thought had disappeared, took six days to look us in the eye and tell us that the programs had been cut because there was no return on investment and their objectives had not been achieved. For INIS, this is 25% of their budget. I cannot say whether the minister lied, but she did not tell the truth, and that is serious.
So we are calling the minister, and we want her to explain how these things work and why her communications director, Dominic Gosselin, first says that the money taken from PromArt is going to go to the Olympic Torch Relay, then says that this is not true on Joane Prince's radio show on Radio-Canada. Is someone in this government going to level with us? Does this mean that, with this so-called reallocation, which is nothing but smoke and mirrors, they are going to try to play sport and culture off against each other when both are part of
what I call and what we should call the Canadian fabric of this country.
This makes no sense. Is the goal to divide and conquer? I invite my colleagues opposite to go and see the wonderful film Cinema Paradiso. It is not a Canadian film, but we can appreciate it anyway because our culture is so open. It won an Oscar, unfortunately at the expense of The Decline of the American Empire. You know the outstanding Denys Arcand, you know Denise Robert. There was a priest in the film. Philippe Noiret played the projectionist. The priest would watch the films in the morning. Why did he watch? He had his little bell...
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Mr. Chair, procedurally we can continue on this all day. If Mr. Coderre has some suggestions he'd like to make as to where the committee might go next, I'd encourage him to do that.
I didn't come to hear film reviews, although I'd gladly talk to you about what films you feel I should or should not watch during my free time. We can do that after committee. But perhaps you could point it to where you'd like the committee to go, Mr. Coderre.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
There was some raillery that went on over here before, and I called on a point of order. I'm going to ask the same respect back.