Canadian Heritage Committee on April 29th, 2009

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

With respect to establishing salaries internally, that is a matter for the CBC/Radio-Canada and it is not up to me to judge. I have no comments to make on that.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

All right. All of your colleagues asked questions about it, but you have no comments to make on it.

Regarding CBC/Radio-Canada, in

the Treasury Board main estimates, and if you look at page 116, I can quote from your own document from the budget:

Contributing to this change in sector spending are a series of departmental decreases, among which the most notable are the department of Canadian Heritage ($136.9 million), Canadian Broadcasting Corporation ($62.8 million)

How can you explain that?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

We made a campaign commitment, as you know, to support Société Radio-Canada, and if you take a look at the full scope of the investments that we're making into Radio-Canada, it has increased over the years. We made a very clear campaign commitment. We've kept that campaign commitment.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Okay, but that clearly contradicts your own budget, because in the budget here it says

there have been cutbacks and one of the major ones was to CBC/Radio-Canada and it totalled $62 million. I would like you to explain to me exactly what is written in your own document, in other words your budget. It is not my budget, it's yours.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

My deputy has just informed me that the reason why it likely shows up that way in the estimates is because the $60 million amount for Canadian programming was removed for two years, not one year, so for the one-year gap, that would be the gap you are looking at.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

So, you are renewing the $60 million. Someone at the Corporation told me that it had never received written confirmation of this fact. Is there a reason for that?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I told this individual personally, but as you know, there are additional delays in the House.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

So you will be confirming this in writing.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I just said it in my presentation, but I will repeat it once again

in English: CBC will receive their $60 million supplement for Canadian programming, and I have communicated that directly to Mr. Lacroix.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Then today you can say that there will be no cuts at CBC? Can you guarantee today that your government will not cut CBC?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

That's correct.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Can you also guarantee that any solution for the actual crisis in the television sector will include CBC also?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

As you know, there are different challenges. We haven't made any commitments with regard to the broadcasting industry. There is a lot of gossip, speculation, and rumour going on out there. That's not uncommon in this city. This is a city that operates on gossip, and that's fine, but we haven't made any commitments in that regard.

Keep in mind that you have to take a step back. For example, I mentioned the Canada Media Fund. Keep in mind that the Canada Media Fund, in time, will have money available for in-house production. That, in the long term, will benefit Radio-Canada. We're continuing to work with CBC/Radio-Canada as they bring forward their capital plan. We have a strong partnership, and we will continue to support the public broadcaster.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Conventional television is currently experiencing a severe crisis, as illustrated by declining advertising revenues. This affects everyone, in both the public and the private sectors. The people from TQS told us so today and those from TVA and CTV told us so the other day.

Despite this, we have not heard much from the government. Do you have any solutions? Do you support what the industry is calling for, that is, fee-for-carriage? Are you in favour of this solution?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

As you know, fee-for-carriage is a decision for the CRTC, and as you know, the licence agreements are up right now and there is a great deal of discussion about that. It wouldn't be--

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Do you have an opinion?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It's a decision of the CRTC. I'll just leave it at that. But I would add beyond this that yes, of course we have our eyes and ears open about what possible solutions might be best suited for the industry, both for the CBC and for the private broadcasters as well.

Part of the thing I hope this committee is discovering is that there is a great deal of debate within the industry itself, and there is a great deal of debate within government, and I hope there is a great deal of debate at this committee about doing the analysis, as the industry is doing, on what are the structural problems of the industry and what are the cyclical problems of the industry. Some people are pointing to the drop in ad revenue and suggesting that is a cyclical problem in the industry as a result of the downturn in the economy. Others are arguing that is in fact a structural issue.

As we deal with this downturn in the economy, as we deal with the shifting economy, the response ought not be knee-jerk. It ought not be something that doesn't have the long-term interests of Canadians at heart. That's why we are taking a full examination of all this.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Will you be making an announcement soon?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Rodriguez, your time is up.

Madam Lavallée.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good day, Minister Moore. I am very pleased to have you with us today. I just want to remind you that, under a specific motion, we invited you in the last week of March to come and talk about CBC/Radio-Canada. I'm going to try to psychoanalyze you, and I would like you to help me a bit. In fact, I only have five minutes to try and understand the difference between what you say and what you do, and when I say "you", I'm referring to your government.

Is it the funding or the mandate of CBC/Radio-Canada that you disapprove of? There are many things that you should have done for CBC/Radio-Canada, but you did not. If you really cared about your public broadcaster, you would have supported it through difficult times. Last year, when this committee submitted a report asking basically for three things, namely, for a memorandum of understanding plus stable funding over seven years, for the $60 million to automatically become part of the budget, and for the creation of a budget representing $40 per capita you reportedly welcomed these suggestions wholeheartedly and said you would act on them. But you did not do so.

Mr. Lacroix wrote a letter to your Prime Minister at the end of February, but he never received any reply. However, the week that the private broadcasters informed you of their financial difficulties, not only did they receive a favourable response from you, that is, that they would be receiving assistance, but they were also invited to dinner by the Prime Minister. So you walked the talk.

You have been asked time and time again to help CBC/Radio-Canada. You say that you have never given it so much money, but CBC/Radio-Canada says it has had a shortfall of $400 million in constant dollars since 1990.

Your members seem to have the same mindset. When the subject of CBC/Radio-Canada's possible disappearance is brought up in the House, the Conservative members applaud. Earlier, when Mr. Petit put a question to the representative of Remstar, he seemed to disapprove of the billion dollars that you were giving to CBC/Radio-Canada, stating that it was a lot of money. But we know that their mandates are not the same.

In short, is there something in CBC/Radio-Canada's mandate that does not suit you?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I believe that your question has six or seven points.

I know that in the past, your committee has underscored the importance of this $60 million investment in the programming of CBC/Radio-Canada. Each of our four budgets that were passed by the House of Commons included the $60 million, including this year's budget. We therefore complied with this committee's opinion.

As I said to Mr. Rodriguez, we promised, during the election campaign, to maintain or increase the budget of the Corporation. We have honoured that commitment every year in each of our budgets.

I cannot be responsible for the schedule of the Prime Minister, just as you cannot be for that of Mr. Duceppe. The Prime Minister has stated on several occasions in public that our government understands the importance of CBC/Radio-Canada, whether in terms of culture or the future of our country. My office staff and I often discuss these concerns with Mr. Lacroix. We have a good relationship and we work together to prepare the future.

Lastly, you stated that certain members of the Conservative Party are not concerned about CBC/Radio-Canada's survival. I can tell you that that is completely false. Each of our members voted in favour of our budget, which has increased the funding for CBC/Radio-Canada every year. I would also like to point out that in the past, the Liberal Party stated that it had difficulty balancing the federal budget. In reality, the federal budget was balanced in 1997-1998. In 1998-1999, that is, the following year, CBC/Radio-Canada's budget was $896 million, but even though the budget was balanced, the Liberals cut its funding by $16 million.

Now, despite the global economic crisis and as part of a budget intended to counter that crisis, we are continuing to invest in CBC/Radio-Canada, and we have even increased funding for public broadcasting. That is the difference.

You are joining forces with the Liberal Party and with Mr. Rodriguez. Despite your document, and your [Note de la rédaction: inaudible], the fact remains that it was the Liberals who cut the CBC's funding. They cut 4,000 jobs and $400 million; we are the ones who have been supporting CBC/Radio-Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

The time worked out about even. Your question was long and the minister's response was equal.

Mr. Angus, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you, Mr. Minister, for coming before our committee today.

The question for us is your role in terms of CBC and the destabilizing atmosphere that occurred in the lead-up to their having to make their cuts. I'd like to quote Hubert Lacroix, who stated:

Does that mean that I like it when I read that his Government is rumoured to be contemplating helping CTV, Canwest and Quebecor after closing the door to our request for bridge funding? Does that mean that I like it when, with five days left in our fiscal year, I still don't have written confirmation of the approval of the special $60 million...at the same time I hear that Government says that it has given us record funding...? Does that mean that I like it when, with five days left in our fiscal year, our capital budget is stuck in Government processes somewhere in Ottawa? ... How can you plan your business, a $1.7-billion business, in this kind of environment?

Mr. Minister, it seems to me that with a nod and a wink you've been standing back watching CBC totter through its crisis, either through the incompetence of your government or a willingness. There was no clear signal sent to CBC until it was almost too late. How do you explain that?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Look, I frankly would disagree with you. We have a very strong working relationship with the CBC, with Hubert Lacroix. We made a very specific campaign commitment, as I've said, with regard to funding for the CBC. We've kept our commitment. We've been crystal-clear on every single one of our campaign platforms and every single one of the four budgets we've passed through the House of Commons. We've sent a clear and consistent signal that we have been supporting the CBC with over $1 billion of investment in every single one of our budgets. Our record is—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But we're talking about what happened in the lead-up to the crisis. For example, Hubert Lacroix, again:

To help us manage budget pressures, we had asked the Government to grant us a degree of financial flexibility similar to the flexibility that private broadcasters enjoy when managing their budgets. ...we simply wanted to be able to have access to lines of credit and to pay them down in the course of normal operations. We never asked for additional subsidies. We did not "beg for more", to quote recent headlines in the Toronto Sun and Ottawa Sun. As you already know, that request was refused. No lines of credit, no temporary funding and no advances on future parliamentary appropriations to allow us to better manage CBC/Radio-Canada’s operations...and to protect the investments that various governments have made since our creation nearly 75 years ago.

And yet one week before the end of the fiscal year, you were running up the flagpole that you had never had any conversation with CBC about a loan for future appropriations.

Mr. Minister, we've heard the questions from your colleagues at this committee. They've been absolutely hostile towards CBC on funding, every single one of them. As you know, your colleagues in the House continually heckle. I'm sure you've heard the heckling about CBC—you might even have heard some today—that your members do whenever they see that CBC is in trouble.

How can you, as a minister, when you're supposed to be responsible for this department, run something up the flagpole that's so blatantly untrue? I'm talking about the fact that you went public and said that you'd never had a discussion with the CBC about a request for future appropriations, an advancement, a loan, when everybody knows they had that conversation? What kind of truthiness are you trying to preach here?