Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. I don't want to interrupt. I'm not a member of this committee. I'd just like to ask whether we can have those documents tabled. I requested those documents. You cannot tell me there are no documents.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

There are no documents to table. That's the whole point.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

You mentioned that there were documents. There was an agreement signed on November 12 between the Government of Canada and various members of the Italian community. There must have been negotiations and documents that preceded this agreement. You cannot deny that this agreement existed. I could table the agreement, but there are documents, which I've requested, that have not been made available.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I have a point of order. Thank you.

Perhaps they could also table the documents related to things such as Kelowna, or perhaps they could document things related to Kyoto, or produce other documents the Liberal Party signed that they had zero intention of ever following through on.

That was a political document, and you well know it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We're going to move on to Mr. Pomerleau, please.

I would imagine that through access to information those documents will be available.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

The minister has to leave at noon, and Madame Lavallée's question is being interrupted, so could you proceed?

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Yes, and I hope the points of order don't cut into my allotted time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm trying to. I should have used my gavel, shouldn't I?

Madame Lavallée, please.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Earlier, Minister, you stated that it would be undignified for the government to apologize too often. I'd like to dispute that contention. When one makes a mistakes, the least one can do is issue a dignified apology, until such time as the victims are prepared to accept that apology. It takes a big man to apologize. Making an apology at a reception or dance is one thing, but it isn't enough. We want you to issue an apology in the House of Commons.

The very least an honourable government can do is to openly admit to the members of the House of Commons that it made a mistake and apologize for it. And it should continue to apologize until the victims are satisfied with and accept these apologies. That's what a responsible government must do, a government that has the welfare of its citizens and in this case, of the Italian-Canadian community, at heart.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Unfortunately, Mr. Chair, there are no longer any victims still alive to witness any new apologies.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I'm sure there are a few of them who are still alive.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

But the bill makes no mention of the government issuing a second apology in the House of Commons.

I am curious about one thing, however. The four organizations in question signed an agreement-in-principle on November 12, 2005 in which the following is stated:The Government of Canada and the Italian Canadian Community have developed this Agreement-in-Principle premised on the principles of “no compensation” and “no apology”.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I'm sorry, Minister...

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

The four organizations agreed that no apology would be requested.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

And yet, these persons came here to request an apology. I have my doubts about these documents, and even about what you said earlier about the National Congress of Italian Canadians. I know your government is always ready to invoke a sophistical argument, as it did in the case of the 10%, to establish questionable facts.

Moreover, I was quite surprised to hear your advisers' comments when they were here. They even went so far as to inform me, outside the confines of this committee, that the people interned during the war were fascists and deserved their fate. That's what they told me. Therefore, I find...

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

On a point of order, I'll hear Mr. Bruinooge.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Madame Lavallée is referring to testimony from witnesses that was not delivered at this committee. I don't see how that can be in order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I don't either.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

What she just referred to were some comments made in a hallway. How can we attribute any truth to that?

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

In any case, they've repeated these statements in books.

Minister, I asked the advisers who came here to name the person or organization at the helm of the Italian community. They answered that there was no one person or organization in particular, whereas we know very well that the National Congress of Italian Canadians has taken on this role. For all kinds of reasons like this, even though I'm no expert on Italian-Canadian or Italian-Quebec affairs, I have to question the quality of the advice they gave you.

Summing up, I do want to say that I have a great deal of respect for Italian women. It so happens that we have a prominent Italian woman in our midst. My cousins, uncles and aunts—I'm from Montreal—all married Italians. My uncle, Orelio Ferraro, is Italian. Not only is he my uncle, he is also my godfather. My cousins are Italian and they taught me how to make real Italian pizza. Therefore, I have a great deal of respect for Italians and for the Italian community. When I hear prominent Italian Canadians say that despite the bill, they would still like to have the government apologize in the House of Commons...

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chair, they were of the opposite opinion when they signed the agreement in 2005.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Like I said earlier, I'll believe it when I see it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I didn't hear a question there, necessarily. Is there some sort of response?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chairman, I need to be really clear. There are various questions here about tabling documents. I'm happy to table the agreement in principle between the Government of Canada and the Italian-Canadian community of November 12, 2005. I didn't think it was necessary; I thought it was already before the committee. This is the agreement in principle that speaks of an amount of $2.5 million, and an agreement of no compensation and no apology.

I said there were no documents referring to $12.5 million. I can't table such documents because they don't exist. There's no document in the records of the Government of Canada that refers to an agreement for $12.5 million. There is only this agreement, Mr. Chairman.

What I find really curious is Madam Minna's talking about demands for an apology. The organizations in question—Mr. Campione, president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians; Mr. Mariani, president of the Fédération nationale des associations commerciales et professionnelles italo-canadiennes; Mr. Bueti, past president of the Orders Sons of Italy of Canada; Mr. Galella, Fondation communautaire canadienne-italienne du Québec—ont signé un accord that said there will be no apology, no compensation and no apology.

That was their agreement. That may have been sufficient for Raymond Chan and the previous Liberal government. It wasn't for either the Conservative government of Brian Mulroney, which made the apology, or our government, which has put on the table not $2.5 million but $5 million for commemorative funding, and not to be distributed by a handful of self-selected community leaders but available to everyone in the community, Mr. Chairman—everyone.