Evidence of meeting #39 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was apology.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. As an Italian Canadian, when someone gives you absolutely no choice, you take what you can. I'm saying there was no choice. But when you start apologizing to everyone, then there is a choice.
Conservative
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you. Can you confirm that I'll get my full five minutes, Mr. Chair?
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you. I appreciate that.
To begin with, I want to address this issue of Treasury Board. You've indicated that the application didn't meet Treasury Board guidelines. We know the Liberal Party has a record of disregarding Treasury Board. We've all seen what Justice Gomery had to say about the Liberal Party in respect of Treasury Board.
Can you outline why our party thinks it's a good idea to respect Treasury Board guidelines, and that it's not an insult to anyone that we're actually following the rules?
Conservative
Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB
I would say that I think this is a flaw in the bill with respect to Mr. Pacetti, the sponsor, because the bill in clause 4 does not specify the instrument for prospective restitution, as it refers to. It doesn't specify that this would be in compliance with existing terms and conditions of Treasury Board guidelines or any other elements of the Government of Canada's financial management framework.
We had good-faith discussions with the four communities that signed this agreement. It's an agreement, by the way, that calls for no apology and no compensation. They asked if we could please set up an endowment, make a transfer to an endowment, and I said I'd be happy to look into that.
The officials came back and looked at the Treasury Board guidelines and they looked at the Minister of Finance's investment management framework for upfront funding. I'll boil this down. I guess one of your colleagues is not interested in the facts here. It essentially says that the organization has to have a certain track record of managing significant amounts of funds, have a strong accounting framework, etc.
When we looked at the foundation that they were asking us to fund an endowment for, it had $521 in assets, no revenues for that year, and hadn't filed its annual report. It indicated an intention of dissolving and had essentially no activities to report. It would be effectively illegal. I'll put it this way: it would certainly be a violation of all of the accounting and financial rules of the Government of Canada to vest an endowment fund in such an instrument, in such an organization.
That's not an insult against the people involved. I'm sure they're very good people, but for whatever reason, they hadn't maintained the management of this fund. They were not giving us something to work with. I told them that if they had a legitimate, well-structured foundation that could qualify, I would absolutely be willing to discuss transferring endowment funds.
Now, Ms. Minna has been saying--I think quite unfortunately, playing one community against another--that somehow I'm suggesting the Italian community couldn't manage funds and the Ukrainian community could. Look, the officials looked at the facts, not at opinions, not at community politics. The particular NCIC foundation clearly did not qualify, based on the analysis not of me but of the officials. The Taras Shevchenko Foundation, on the other hand, is a large foundation that has managed millions of dollars for many years with very robust activities and extremely robust accounting practices. It qualified according to the finance investment management framework.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you.
Following up on where we sit here on the committee, you mentioned that some committee members weren't paying attention to the answer. That's too bad, because they made impassioned arguments against the point you were making. I'm glad you had the opportunity to clarify that.
I mentioned that Angelo Persichilli has written a number of articles on this bill, including one very recently. I apologize because I'm going to quote it in English, but it was originally written in Italian.
It says that Bill C-302 is a result of a personal initiative of two deputies who are not sponsored.... It's not a position of the Liberal Party, just of Mr. Pacetti and Mr. Tonks. He goes on to say that the initiative, while it's laudable, is above all politics.
One of the things that I really haven't appreciated in this is that as a Canadian of Italian descent, I firmly believe that Canadians of Italian descent have long accepted that this country apologized when the War Measures Act was repealed in 1988 and specific reference in the House of Commons to the Italian internment was made. Italians forgave. Italian Canadians have been key builders in this country. I think they have both found their place in this society and made contributions.
I think this bill ultimately will divide. We've heard them impugn Canadians of Italian descent here today who apparently aren't good enough Canadians to sit on historical recognition boards.
Conservative
Conservative
Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB
Look, the record speaks for itself. Successive Liberal governments refused apology, refused any form of commemorative funding. I count seven Liberal Prime Ministers who refused to do so over the course of 58 years.
You know what? I think we should focus on the many different activities that are available and on the many different funds and institutions that are available to commemorate these sad experiences. I think we should focus--all of us, together--on putting aside whatever disagreements may have existed. Rather than trying to score political points on this sad moment in our history, we should be focusing productively on how best to commemorate the events and to educate future generations about them.
I encourage members of this committee and all those interested to make applications through the community historical recognition program that's being very ably administered by our officials. I encourage them to contact Pier 21, the new national museum on immigration, or the Canadian human rights museum, both of which are creations of our government, to suggest other projects that could be used to commemorate.
I suggest they contact the Canadian Race Relations Foundation, created by the Mulroney government in 1990 precisely as part of the legacy of wartime internment experiences. I suggest they work with the national foundation on projects to move forward.
The community organizations said that they did not expect a second apology. They signed off on that in 2005. An apology was made by Prime Minister Mulroney. We have made $5 million of funding available. There's the $25 million endowment with the Canadian Race Relations Foundation. There's Pier 21. There's the museum of human rights.
All of those worthwhile initiatives are to commemorate periods of historical injustice in Canada's past--not exclusively Italian Canadian internment, but that is one of those many experiences. I think we could all productively work together on that, going forward.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Thank you.
Thank you for your answers this morning and for being here at committee.
Conservative
Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB
Do you need me to table the agreement in principle, Mr. Chairman?
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
The agreement in principle is a public document. It's the papers that went with it, the negotiations behind it, that we're asking for.
November 26th, 2009 / 12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Conservative
Liberal
Conservative
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
There was a bureaucrat, and I can tell you the name—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Anyway, Minister, if you'd like to table the document, we will accept that document.
Ms. Minna.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, could we also have the accompanying documents? Otherwise it's meaningless. It's not accurate. It doesn't reflect the discussion. It doesn't reflect the--
Liberal
Conservative