Canadian Heritage Committee on March 9th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much.

We'll move now to Mr. Del Mastro, please.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for appearing here today. I appreciate your taking the time to make your presentations to the committee.

The first thing I want to make clear is that we've heard an awful lot of discussion about PromArt. As you're well aware, PromArt is not a file within the Department of Canadian Heritage, it's a Foreign Affairs program. It's not within the scope of the study before us. That said, I appreciate hearing your comments on that.

Mr. Paré, I wanted to come back to you. I've done some research on CINARS, and I pulled up the funding history on CINARS going back to 1991. I found CINARS had received about $1.1 million, roughly, in total federal government funding since 1991; $405,000 of that is in the last two fiscal years under our government. So up until the point we were government, you averaged $47,000 per year and you've averaged a little over $200,000 under our government. Yet you've been a harsh critic, I think it's fair to say, of our government.

Do you think maybe you're not being fully open with folks when you're talking about the level of support you're receiving from our government, from the government in general?

[Alain Paré]

I am not criticizing your government. I am saying that Canadian artistic companies do not have the necessary funding to tour internationally. I am grateful to the Canadian government for supporting our organization, because our mandate is, in fact, to support and assist Canadian companies to export their products.

The funding received from the federal government for our event—which is held every two years—generates between $12 and $14 million in revenues for Canadian companies. Once again, this is a cost-effective investment and the economic impact is considerable. We are asking that this funding be restored or that it be used to help Canadian companies carry out their international touring activities.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Okay.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Very, very short.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Before Mr. Del Mastro goes back to his questions, I would just like to comment on the way we operate in committee in terms of questioning witnesses. This is quite a sensitive matter. I don't know whether he is referring to the funding each group has received, but the impression could be left that the government is engaging in a form of blackmail, in terms of providing grant money only to people who share their views. I would not like that impression to be left.

I see no reason for there to be any discussion of individual funding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm going to make a ruling here. I think we've let the questioning go the way of the opposition parties. I don't see that this puts anyone in jeopardy or puts any words in anyone's mouth. All I heard were some positive things put forward, and I respect that. As chair, I have allowed the opposition to put its points forward: I will now allow the government side to put its forward.

Yes, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

On a point of order, I think it would be good to have a general ruling that we don't want the government having access to or going through requests for funding and then being able to use it here at committee. I think it would only be fair to specific companies speaking before us that the government is not pulling up their file and saying, well, we're looking at how much money we gave you. I think that would be inappropriate.

I don't mind the general question of arts; that's certainly a fair question, but for the parliamentary secretary to refer to any individual, organization, and how much money they're getting, I think, has no place here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm going to go to Ms. Lavallée, and then to Mr. Bruinooge.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I fully agree. Indeed, I think it would be unfortunate for the witnesses we have invited here today to have the amounts of money they have received thrown up at them. When money is given to cultural organizations, it is for the cultural work that they perform, for artistic development. That is why they are given the money. It is not so that they can agree with the ideology of the government providing the funding.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

On the same point of order--

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I would ask everyone at this table not to engage in that kind of questioning.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Before I take the next points of order, and if we're going to carry this on until 4:30, there will be no more questioning of our panel. In all fairness to the panel, to our witnesses, we've brought them here to hear what they have to say, and we will respect the distances they have come. If we want to keep on with the points of order, I'll stay on that until 4:30 and then we'll recess.

Mr. Bruinooge, Ms. Dhalla, Ms. Glover, and then Mr. Del Mastro.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I tend to agree. This is starting to delve into a bit of a debate.

That being said, when the parliamentary secretary acknowledges publicly available information about government allocations of funds, I think it is germane to this discussion, in light of the fact that this discussion seems to be focused on a reduction of government support for the arts. When compared with the facts, it doesn't seem to be, in my opinion, actually holding true to reality. So I think Mr. Del Mastro's point is fair, and as such, in light of the fact that it is public information, I don't see the concern that's been expressed by a number of the members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We'll go to Ms. Dhalla, Ms. Glover, and then Mr. Del Mastro. And hopefully we can carry on.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Not to belabour the point that my other colleague just said, I just hope that, moving forward, the other witnesses we have coming to the committee do not feel intimidated in any way, shape, or form, in that if they are receiving any type of funding from the government they do not have a right to speak out. I would hope that this was not the intention of the parliamentary secretary in terms of bringing forward the information. A number of organizations receive funding from the Government of Canada, but they do have a right to have their opinions, whether or not they're in the favour of the government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Ms. Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to touch on this subject very briefly.

The opposition parties, with all due respect, want to be able to put forward negative lines of questioning. And any time our respected witnesses want to give credit to the government, as Mr. Paré did during the question from the parliamentary secretary, immediately points of order are made. It doesn't seem fair to the witnesses that they're not able to provide their positive reinforcement of what the government has done. And I want to remind people under the previous Liberal government, the number was brought forward of how much was made. It wasn't a reflection on the witness but rather a reflection on the previous Liberal government, which only gave $47,000. The NDP will never be in government. They continue to vote against any kind of inflation toward arts and culture.

And so we're simply putting our position forward so that the witnesses can comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Del Mastro, please make it short, because we have only about seven minutes left.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

On the point of order, if I'm not able to reference money, when this is about money...? Is this not about money? Haven't the hearings I've been in been about money? What are we talking about? Cuts? Cuts to what? Apparel? Cuts to what? Cuts to money. So if I'm not allowed to reference money to point out how we're spending more money.... And maybe none of you like that because you're all trying to misrepresent the numbers. The numbers are what they are. Math only indicates that addition means addition. You can't do addition by subtraction. Therefore, if I'm not allowed to talk about money, since it's about money, what are we even here for? It's ridiculous. Of course I'm allowed to quote what's been awarded. This is public information. And the fact that we're even into this point of order is an absolute waste of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm making my decision that we're going to carry on. Nothing has been said in this line of questioning that is against any rules. We are talking, again, about some very serious things to a lot of people.

Mr. Del Mastro, carry on with your questioning, please. You have two and a half minutes left.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to reiterate that every dollar the government spends is competitively lobbied for from every industry in every department the government deals with. I was on the finance committee for three years, and I can tell you there is never a dollar picked up in strategic review or invested that isn't questioned by virtually every group that comes before the committee. It's very common. Government has only so much money to work with, but it has an infinite number of requests. That's where the parties disagree, but we have to deal with the facts when it comes to arts and culture.

Mr. Paré, we have announced $276 million in new funds. That's a 10% increase to the overall department in budget 2009. Of this amount, $100 million is for festivals. You indicated you thought that was all about tourism, with nothing going to the arts, but tourism is such an enormous part of what we're doing. I think when we're talking about international travel and promoting internationally, we should also be trying to draw international visitors here to share Canadian culture and promote Canadian communities and identity.

I'm not sure I understand why the $100 million we're putting into promoting festivals isn't wholeheartedly supported by the arts community here in Canada. Can you share that with me?

[Alain Paré]

The $100 million that you have announced is for festivals. It is not for tourism; it is to attract people from abroad to participate in various festivals here in Canada. It has absolutely no impact on companies that tour abroad. These festivals present programming for the public, and thus there is no direct effect on what is known as outreach and assistance for foreign export of artistic creations and productions. The problem may be that you really don't understand that we are talking about two totally different things here.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I do understand. I'm saying that domestic festivals are under intense pressure because there is a drop-off in advertising revenue, and if that money wasn't there and domestic productions failed, the ramifications of that would be felt by more than just arts groups. It would be felt by virtually every industry in Canada, including restaurants and hotel facilities, in every small community that depends on tourism, and every large community, including cities like Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, and Edmonton. If these festivals fail, it's a big hit to the arts community and to so many other business interests that are supported by this money.

Wouldn't you agree with that?