Canadian Heritage Committee on May 11th, 2010

[Pierre Proulx]

Let me give you a very concrete example. Let us say that the new Batman movie is in production and the movie company also wants to produce a game that will come out at the same time, in two years. A video game for a computer or a console takes 24 to 36 months to produce, so the clock is ticking. Say Studio X is interested in the project, but it has to bring in another team. A number of countries, not just Canada, have selected the video game industry as a tool for economic diversification. That means that we have to fight over experts wherever we can find them in the world, the ones with 10 to 15 years of experience. If a company needs one expert to train a team of 24 or 40 people, depending on the area, whether in programming, animation or game production, and if it takes 12 or 13 weeks to do the administrative paperwork, we have lost a whole quarter. Over 24 months, that is huge. In the last year, to my knowledge, three projects have unfortunately not been possible for a Montreal company to produce. The administration took too long and the people could not come later. They were needed there right away. The company had already identified them. There was someone from Japan, someone from Britain and someone from somewhere else I forget. Since they could not get them here, the project had to be shelved.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

It really had to be shelved because of the administration involved?

[Pierre Proulx]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

This has been a fascinating discussion. When I'm not wearing my political hat, one of my other hats I wear is oral historian. I have 20-some years of doing oral interviews.

I find that technology giveth and it taketh away. I'm excited in terms of the role of the citizen archivist today, but changing technology does continually provide issues.

For example, I'd like to think that I know pretty much every historic photo taken in the early boom town of Cobalt. I've been in the archives for hours and hours. I know there's a computer project in there. They were setting up this historic...and they had a photo on the front. I asked where the photo had come from; I'd never seen it. They showed me a whole bunch of these photos, and they were fascinating.

I asked them, “What archives did you go to?”, and they said, “We didn't go to any archives. We just went to Flickr.” Then I tried to track down this guy on Flickr who's got these extremely rare photos. I tracked down this guy from British Columbia, who has photos that nobody's ever seen before. I still can't even figure out where they came from.

So the citizen's library is out there, and more and more citizens are engaging. But the downside is that over the last 20-some years, lots of research has been put on the “latest technology”. There were hundreds of interviews of mining widows done on these big floppy discs. It's all junk now. Nobody kept hard copies. The only thing I've ever found reliable is hard copies. I've done interviews on minidiscs. Now I can't find a minidisc to play them on. And that was cutting-edge technology five years ago.

Are there recommendations that should be given to the amateur community historians out there who are creating culture today and recording it so that it's not redundant or unusable in two or three years time? Are there standards that we should be starting to show people about how to gather interviews, to gather digital photos, how to keep them? Because it seems to me there's a phenomenal opportunity, but a lot of stuff might just end up being unusable if we continue to change formats.

[Dr. Steven High]

If we're going to wait for a standard, we'll be waiting a long time, I think. It's constantly changing.

I don't know how you get around that, because those old pneumatic tapes or reel-to-reel or audio or micro-cassettes.... You know, analog was also very fragmented too.

What I would say is that there's a power in the spoken word. When you hear someone's voice--the motions, the rhythm--there's power there that's very hard to translate on the written page. If oral history's power is to put a face and a name to the past, and make it personal, make people care, you've got to think twice before you're sure of that emotion. Certainly the meaning of a story, when people are talking, it might be full of irony or sarcasm, but how do you translate that? Or the body language; how do you translate that? So the great thing about new media is that it's forcing us to author in sound and image, in all these different ways that were very difficult not so long ago.

My practice has transformed in the last 21 years. I had these big honking VHS cameras that weighed 40 pounds 21 years ago. Now I'm going in there with multiple things and we're doing incredible stuff.

So the possibilities are amazing. You're right, there are challenges, but there always were and there always will be, I guess.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes. I guess in terms of a standard, I'm thinking about advice to citizen archivists and how they need to think of a project.

For example, I was going through a project I did ten years ago where I interviewed a bunch of pioneers, most of whom are dead. It was for CBC, so it was all audio. Now I'd like to do something with it, and I feel completely idiotic that I never took any photographs. I know that as soon as people listen to it they're going to say, “Well, where are the photographs, bonehead?” And I'm going to have to say, “Geez, I wasn't thinking in a three-dimensional world then. We were in soundscapes, so soundscapes is the best you've got.”

It seems to me that the opportunities are immense, but if we're going to have amateur historians and archivists, are there lessons that people can learn? Are there places they can go so that they know what they should be doing?

[Dr. Steven High]

What I would say is that oral historians have spent 40 years thinking about how to interview people--focusing on the interview, to do it right and so on--but we haven't thought about after the interview. Again, that's why we have these tens and tens of thousands of interviews sitting unheard.

Historica is doing some great work now with World War II veterans where they're doing digital stories online. Again, we're now thinking seriously about what happens after and how we make sure that these stories continue to tell long after whoever the interviewer was or the project that created these things--that recorded these interviews--is long gone.

Again, this explosion of creativity is messy, but things are being recorded that would never have been recorded 20 years ago. It's amazing what's going on out there. I'm thinking of the west coast with--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much. We have to move on to our last questioner.

Mr. Galipeau, please.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, I am going to talk to Mr. High. I have quite a serious sociological question for you. Which hockey team is the best?

[Dr. Steven High]

Montréal: my seven-year-old would kill me if I said anything else.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

You're on the right track.

You're at Concordia, right?

[Dr. Steven High]

Yes.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Right there on de Maisonneuve?

[Dr. Steven High]

Oui, oui.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

There's a big part of history right there outside your door—Norman Bethune.

I really enjoyed the passion with which you delivered your presentation today. There are a few of us here who are passionate about history, including this servant. But I have some questions that are more technical.

We're just trying to help, and we appreciate your helping us to do what's right, so I'd like to know your opinion. Do you think the widespread availability of the Internet is helping or hindering the consumption of Canadian content? That would be my first question.

Given that we're time-constrained, I think I'll ask the other two right now.

Do you find that content creation is diminishing with the emergence of the various forms of new media?

And if there's time, generally, what are the challenges and successes encountered by Canadian digital media?

Thank you.

[Dr. Steven High]

Those are all big questions.

I think the Internet collapses distance, in one way. People are going on to Twitter or doing Google image searches.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

I've heard of Twitter.

[Dr. Steven High]

Yes.

But the mine in Cobalt, Ontario, could be a mine in Siberia. In that way, it destabilizes--i.e., where does Canada fit into that universe? That's one question.

I've been seeing—certainly among students that I'm working with and community partners and so on—that it also reinforces locality and community in really interesting ways. Students are engaging with place and with their city or their nation in really creative ways, authoring in sound and image online. My students write term papers, but they also produce websites.

There was a project this past term where they were interviewing a milkman. There's a milkman in a neighbourhood in Montreal who's been delivering milk for 57 years. They interviewed him, they did a documentary film. They created a mapping of the neighbourhood of Upper Lachine Road with sound points, in terms of seeing what the customers think. It's all about community and identity and locality, but it exists in this global Internet.

I don't think it harms Canadian identity by nature. I think it's broadening horizons to all kinds of possibilities and all kinds of inspirations. I'm seeing it transform my classroom and my practice and my university and my community. If the government can foster that or contribute to that, I think it would be amazing.

There are always challenges. These structures are not.... For whom are they being created, and are they accessible to everyone? These are big questions that need to be addressed. Again, as an oral historian, for me what's important is people's life stories and their experience—to honour that and understand it. If the technology helps me to do that, I'm all for it. If it prevents me, if I'm looking at the technology instead of the person before me, then there's a problem. To me, a lot of this new media is about opportunities and horizon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much.

I really do appreciate your presentations today. And thank you for your answers to the questions from our people around the table.

We are going to take a short recess, and then we'll go into committee business.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm going to call the meeting back to order so we can get our committee business done.

The next item of business is a motion by Mr. Angus.

If you like, Mr. Angus, please give your motion and speak to it.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to give you an overview, I'm asking for a couple of days of hearings into the proposed takeover of Lions Gate film by U.S. shareholder investor Carl Icahn. I do believe this falls within the mandate of our committee, because Lions Gate is a key sector player.

At the outset, I want to say that this is not about squashing any takeover bids or whatever; it's an issue of ensuring that due diligence is done given the importance of Lions Gate in the Canadian film and television sector.

I'll give you the two players and why I think we need to move on it.

Lions Gate is the leading Canadian film company. It's an international success. They have a huge presence in production and distribution in English Canada, Quebec, and the United States. They've spent over $800 million on productions in Canada. In 2007, Lions Gate entered into a significant partnership with the Société générale de financement du Québec to bring more film and production to Quebec, with an investment of up to $400 million U.S.

They have distribution wings through Maple Pictures. They distribute the second-largest film library in Canada, the second-largest Cancon library, and the largest French language Cancon library. They distribute numerous Canadian productions.

The company is also a big player in the various industry organizations, such as CAFDE, Women in Film and Television, the Canadian Film Centre, and the National Screen Institute.

Any serious shakeup at Lions Gate would have massive repercussions across the film and television sector.

Carl Icahn has undertaken a hostile takeover. His net worth is $10.5 billion. It depends on who you speak to in the industry, but Icahn has a reputation at times of trying to buy companies, cut out pieces, and sell them off. He's saying he might not do that with Lions Gate, but we're not sure.

If you look up Gordon Gekko, the character from Wall Street, on the Wikipedia entry, it says that Gekko is loosely based on two characters. One was Ivan Boesky, who was very notorious and who was a criminal. Carl Icahn is not a criminal, but he was the other character because of his reputation for moving in on companies, maximizing shareholder value, and pulling out.

Regardless of whether Mr. Icahn is in charge, or the present Lions Gate board, this could have serious impacts for the Canadian film and television sector.

Under the rules it's up to the Minister of Canadian Heritage to ensure there's a net benefit to Canada. In March 2010, Mr. Icahn said he would be negotiating with the Minister of Heritage on a takeover of this operation. At the same time, Lions Gate is in negotiations to possibly leave Canada for good. They're concerned that our court provisions don't protect them with the poison pill they need to stop this hostile takeover. Either way we are facing a potential serious shakeup of the industry.

What I would like to propose is two or three days of hearings. I think we need to hear both sides so it's on the record, it's in the public realm. I'd like hear from the heritage minister and his officials in terms of how they would proceed with this, ensuring due diligence. They may be other industry players who would want to speak to this, but at this point I'm feeling we need to hear from the minister, from Mr. Icahn, and from the Lions Gate board.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Rodriguez.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I agree with the proposal. That said, I would limit it to two meetings for the moment, because I am also a little worried about getting away from our present study. It is very serious and we have been working on it for a long time. To the extent possible, I would like us to produce at least an interim report or something before we leave for the summer, to the extent that the committee wishes.

But there is some urgency about Lionsgate. That is why I understand and support the motion. But I would limit it to two sessions at the moment, and then we can see. But we really should do something about our main study, ideally before we leave for the summer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay.

Mr. Del Mastro.