Evidence of meeting #22 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was thursday.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Richard Dupuis
Good morning. I see that we have a quorum. I will therefore proceed with the election of the chair.
The chair must be a member of the government party.
I am ready to receive motions for the position of committee chair.
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk
Mr. Del Mastro moves that Mr. Chong be elected chair of the committee.
(Motion agreed to)
I declare Mr. Chong duly elected chair of the committee.
3:35 p.m.
Some hon. members
Hear, hear!
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk
If there are no objections, I will now proceed with the election of the first vice-chair, who must be a member of the official opposition.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
I would like to nominate Pablo Rodriguez.
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk
Mr. Simms moves that Mr. Rodriguez be elected first vice-chair of the committee.
(Motion agreed to)
I declare Mr. Rodriguez duly elected first vice-chair of the committee.
3:35 p.m.
Voices
Hear, hear!
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk
We will now proceed with the election of the second vice-chair, who must be a member of either the Bloc Québécois or the New Democratic Party.
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk
Mr. Pomerleau moves that Madame Lavallée be elected second vice-chair of the committee.
(Motion agreed to)
I declare Madame Lavallée duly elected second vice-chair in absentia.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Thank you everyone for placing your trust in me and for electing me chair of the committee.
I want to tell you that I'm thrilled to be here. I'm very much looking forward to chairing the Canadian heritage committee and working with all of you.
Welcome to the 22nd meeting of our committee.
I've asked committee members if they want to discuss our upcoming fall agenda.
I want to seek consent here to go into committee business to talk about what we're going to do this autumn so you can give the chair and the clerk some direction as to how you want the next 13 meetings to unfold.
Before I go to Mr. Angus and then Mr. Del Mastro, I'll just point out that we left the committee in June with the unfinished digital media study. That's one item we need some direction on, as to whether or not you want to continue that, how many more meetings you want on that, and when you want to wrap that up.
The second two items are that we have two motions in front of the committee--one moved by Monsieur Rodriguez, and one by Madame Lavallée--concerning the CBC and the marquee tourism program respectively.
We also have in front of our committee a private member's bill from Mr. Norlock, which I understand he would like us to deal with. I don't think it would take more than one or two meetings.
We also have an order in council that has been distributed to all the members of the committee concerning the appointment of Mr. Jim Silye, of Arnprior, Ontario, to the board of trustees of the National Museum of Science and Technology. If the committee wants to review that, it's another option.
That's all the business in front of the committee.
We'll begin with Mr. Angus.
3:40 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
On behalf of the New Democratic Party, congratulations. I think you have a great reputation in the House for your work as committee chair. This is one of the great committees, I do believe, because we tend to actually make a plan and we tend to stick to it generally, and we tend to actually come out with some usable reports. So your hand will certainly help us.
There are definitely a number of outstanding issues. I'm wary about getting into our motions today without Madame Lavallée here, because I don't think it's fair to entertain one and not the other. They both pertain to where we're going.
In terms of the emerging digital media study, I would make perhaps two recommendations. The first is that I think we need an overview of what committee business has been done for the new members and for us, who probably have been swamped with a million other things in the intervening months.
Then I think we need to have perhaps a planning session around that, because we are going to be dealing with copyright. Much of the digital media study was getting very much sidetracked on the issue of copyright, as opposed to issues of broadcast, on where we're going in terms of a digital media strategy for culture. Perhaps we're going to need to reassess that study and whether or not we have to pare it down to address or to focus in on the digital distribution of works, as opposed to the larger issues of digital culture; whether we are even close to getting to that point and we're going to just decide to continue with meeting after meeting; or whether we hear some more witnesses, maybe suspend final judgment on that report until after the copyright bill has come in, and then we can see if we're missing something. I think we need to spend a bit of time strategically thinking about that digital media study, because those recommendations are important. With us being caught between that study and copyright, we might not do ourselves justice.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I guess I'll pick up first where Mr. Angus left off.
I think a briefing by the analysts would be appropriate. We have a number of new members on the committee, and I think it might be a good opportunity for those of us who were here to catch up with exactly what we were working on. Perhaps we could plan on having that at the first meeting back after the break.
We are prepared to deal with motions. I think these have been outstanding for a while. We're prepared to deal with them. I guess it would be up to the Bloc if they wanted to move Madam Lavallée's motion today. Certainly we're prepared to support Mr. Rodriguez's motion. I don't see it as being controversial in any way.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Just to clarify, what are you proposing for the first meeting back after the break?
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
I'm just getting to that. I apologize.
For the first meeting after the break, I'm suggesting that perhaps that would give the analysts enough time to be able to put a briefing together for members of the committee as to where we were at on the study we had been undertaking on digital media. I agree with Charlie that it's probably the best place to start with: where we go from there. I know we've had a number of other witness indicate that they'd like to come in and appear on that. Over the summer I've been contacted by a number of them.
What I would like to see happen, Mr. Chair, is this. There is a private member's bill that received unanimous support in the House. I believe we could deal with it in probably one meeting, since it's a fairly simple bill, which is Mr. Norlock's private member's bill. I can't see any reason we can't deal with that on Thursday. I know the committee is going to be bound to deal with it at some point here in this session, so we could dispose of it now. It did have all-party support.
In the first meeting back we could have that briefing and then have an open discussion about where we go from there. That's how I propose to move forward.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
If we do call a meeting for Thursday on this private members' business, are the witnesses available? Is Mr. Norlock available and are other witnesses available to appear?
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
I have taken the opportunity to speak to both Mr. Norlock and to a number of witnesses who'd be required to speak on the bill. I contacted them last week to ask them if they would be prepared to move as quickly as that, and they indicated that they would.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Okay. That's good to know.
I will turn the floor over to Mr. Pomerleau first, and then to Mr. Rodriguez.
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC
Normally, I would go along with Mr. Del Mastro. However, I'm not at all sure what Madame Lavallée has done in terms of contacting people and inviting them to testify in connection with Mr. Norlock's bill. I do not know if she has anyone in mind or whether some witnesses have already been contacted. Therefore, I can't speak for her. I cannot see us starting this study until we know where we stand on that.
However, after we return from spending a week in our ridings, that would be the best time, as Mr. Del Mastro suggested, to prepare an overview of the work that the committee has done, to bring new members up to speed.
I would prefer that we not get into Madame Lavallée's motion at this time. It is her motion and I don't know what exactly she wanted to say about it. She can speak to it herself.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
We will discuss Madame Lavallée's motion after next week's break.
Go ahead, Mr. Rodriguez.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
First of all, congratulations, Monsieur le Président.
I pretty much agree with what's been said here. I don't see any problem, starting with the briefing and all of that.
We do have to decide how long we want to go on with the study, though, because we've been working on this for a while and we've seen a lot of people. I think we have to keep on doing it, but not necessarily for months. So we'll have to decide on something there.
Regarding Bill C-465, we would be planning two meetings, would we?
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Mr. Del Mastro suggested just one meeting, which is Thursday. It's a very short act.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
It is short, but if we're only going to have one meeting, could we have it on the Tuesday? It's tougher to have people come Thursday, late afternoon, than on Tuesday.
Would that be a problem? Or could we have two meetings?
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Well, Mr. Del Mastro said that the witnesses are available this Thursday.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
We could do clause-by-clause on Tuesday, if you want. It's not going to take very long to do clause-by-clause on a bill. But we could have Mr. Norlock and the witnesses here Thursday, which won't require any votes.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Mr. Larry Bagnell, who comes from the north, would very much like to bring a few amendments, but it's not possible for him on the Thursday; he's going back. Could it take place on a Tuesday, or could we do two days so that he has the option of coming?
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Well, it's up to you guys to tell me what to do.
Monsieur Pomerleau.
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC
How would you feel if we proceeded in the reverse order, that is to say, if we had a briefing on the status of the study this Thursday, and undertake our study of Bill C-465 when we come back from our break?
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
That's an option.
Let me confer with the analyst.
Are you prepared to brief us on Thursday about the digital media study?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
—un rapport d'étape.
So we could discuss this and decide on this Thursday how much more time we want to devote to the digital media study. Then on Tuesday, when we get back, we could spend one meeting on Bill C-465 and then we're done.
Is that okay?
Mr. Angus.
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I don't want to be a stick in the spokes of the wheel, but I'm concerned, because we have the two motions. Again, I don't think it's fair to do the one motion, because it is setting a course for our direction without the other motion being heard. I think we have to do it on Thursday so that it's out of the way. And I have no idea how long it will take to debate those, because I don't know whether they're going to be controversial or not.
I don't want us to try to quickly get through the briefing. We, especially our new members, really need to be brought right up to speed on the digital study, because it is a major undertaking that we're doing.
I would suggest that we do the motions and get them out of the way on Thursday, and if there's time for other business then, that's fine. Then on the Tuesday I support our going back to the private member's bill. Then, on that Thursday, we'll have been briefed and could have had even internal discussions by then. I think we need enough time to really assess whether we're going to put a lot more effort into this or not.
I'm worried that if we debate the motions this Thursday and doing so takes an hour and more, and then we're suddenly trying to figure out the future of the digital media study, we're not going to give it the kind of reflection that it needs.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Okay. Well, nobody's moved any motion yet. We've been given notice of motions. So there are no motions on the floor yet. l think the consensus from Madame Lavallée's colleagues is that we not move her motion until she's here.
I leave it to Mr. Rodriguez to decide what he wants to do with his motion.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
We could do it right away, Charlie, in five minutes. It's not very complicated and there's nothing special in there, nothing threatening.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Okay. Is it your intention or your wish, if this motion is adopted on the CBC, to begin that study after?
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
I would say within.... Can I explain it just very quickly?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Exactly.
So the way it's drafted is a bit weird, but it's within the digital media study to have CBC here and talk to us about what's the reality, especially if you consider the fact that CTV has been bought by Bell and it happened the same with Global, this and that. Within that new context, digital media and new platforms and this and that, what is CBC's reality, la réalité de Radio-Canada aussi?
So that's pretty much why it's there.
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Well, first of all, Mr. Rodriguez, can you move your motion, please?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you. I was confused, because we had done a CBC study about a year and a half ago, and we put in a great deal of effort and we crossed from one end of the country to another, so when I read a motion saying we're going to study CBC, I thought, well, it's been done.
Now if we have a motion to study the change in broadcast because of digital platforms and include the sale of CTV and what's happening with Canwest, that's a different issue, because it's not just focusing on CBC. But we're actually now in a situation that's unprecedented and we're in very new terrain.
Whether or not these new television platforms, including Quebecor, are going to start—basically, are we looking at television becoming a mobile telephone device service, or is it traditional broadcast? That is definitely within the purview of our committee. But I think it is a study in itself, and I don't think it's just we throw it into the digital study. This is about broadcast and some of the dramatic changes.
So I would support a motion that is refocused on that and that it is a study in and of itself, as opposed to just trying to fit it in.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
I think these two studies would be too similar. I have some concerns about the relevance of conducting a completely separate study on the integration of broadcasters—and that would include the CBC—and about having to wait until we have finished discussing the future of media and new media. In my view, the two overlap.
Of course, as part of our ongoing study, we could hold a two-hour meeting to discuss the CBC and its future in this universe, as well as the implications of integration. We could cover this in our study on new and emerging media. As I see it, these two subjects are too closely linked to be dealt with separately. We could cover both as part of the same study.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Actually I agree with both of them, surprisingly. Because I think what Charlie is talking about is kind of the vertical integration of media platforms that is being proposed by new entrants. It's a reality that this is happening, and I think that's also what you want to talk to CBC about: how are they keeping up with this vertical integral of platforms and evolving media?
And I actually do think it fits within our new media study, but I wouldn't be adverse to suggesting that within that study we could have a carve-out that specifically talks about some of the challenges in the broadcast industry and how that's evolving. I do think it's evolving, because there are new media opportunities and new platform opportunities, and I do think it's critical that we talk about it within the context of what we're doing.
I don't think it's mutually exclusive to say that we can support this motion and then call on CTV and Canwest to appear and all of the other players, Corus, and obviously Quebecor. I think it would be incumbent upon us to call them all in on that context and certainly talk about it in the future.
But I don't think supporting this is mutually exclusive to doing that, Charlie.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I'm going to have to play the hard man on this, in that we haven't decided what we're doing with our digital media study, but now we're going to start to bring in broadcast and fit it in.
I think the situation with CBC is distinct. It's distinct because CBC is now the only broadcaster left in Canada that is not part of a vertically integrated delivery service. Its challenges are going to be very specific to the fact that its main competitors are basically phone companies. So we have to get our heads around that.
I don't have a problem bringing in the CBC to talk at our digital media study about what it is doing in the digital platforms. That's great. But if it is being posited the way Pablo has said about the new reality, then that is something we have to address specifically, and it's not something we can just throw in.
We are on the verge of a profound change in the delivery of broadcast, and we're putting money through the Canadian Media Fund that is tied to the broadcast envelopes, when some of the producers are going to want to actually cut those strings and get out altogether. If we're going to phone applications and other digital platforms, everything is starting to change. We're going to at least have to spend a bit of time getting our heads around this.
I would oppose this motion at this present time, not oppose where we want to go with it, but I think we have to deal with this digital study, and we have to look at this. To me they are separate entities.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
On the contrary, I think this study is directly related to the future of the CBC. It is entitled “Digital and Emerging Media: Opportunities and Challenges”. It is clear that Canada's public broadcaster, which broadcasts programming in both official languages, is directly affected by a study of this nature and by the new reality that is emerging. At the very least, I would like to have CBC officials appear before the committee to discuss the corporation's future and how it will be impacted by digital and emerging media. At the same time, we could also discuss vertical integration. Given the unique universe in which the public broadcaster is evolving, I would like to hear from these officials and get their take on the corporation's current situation and needs.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
If there is no further debate, I'll put the question, and then we can sort out after how we're going to do this in terms of the digital media study.
If there is no further comment on Mr. Rodriguez's motion, I will put the question.
(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]
As it stands right now, what I'm hearing from committee members is that on the Tuesday we get back after the break we will deal with Mr. Norlock's motion in that one meeting. Please submit your witnesses to the clerk, so that we can coordinate them and invite them well ahead of time. If you could get the witnesses to the clerk by the end of the week, that will give him a full week to coordinate the appearance of witnesses on the Tuesday that we get back.
Mr. Rodriguez.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Just for clarification, there will be two meetings, one for witnesses and one for--
4 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
So half of the meeting with witnesses? I agree with you. I think one meeting with a couple of witnesses--
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
I think what we'll do is divide it into two panels of witnesses.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
What we'll do is have two panels of 50 minutes each and we'll devote the last 20 to 30 minutes to clause-by-clause.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
That could be tight. Can we have the first two hours for witnesses and--
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
So it's not going to take more than half an hour. If you want to spend two meetings on it, I'm prepared to do that.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
We'll have two panels of witnesses from all the witnesses that wish to appear. Then we'll set aside the last half-hour of that meeting for clause-by-clause. So that's the meeting after we get back.
Now I need direction from the committee, because we have two different proposals here with respect to the digital media study. One proposal is to meet this Thursday to decide how many more meetings, to get an oral update and briefing from the clerk, and then to decide as a committee how many more meetings we're going to have.
Mr. Angus has suggested we push that to the Thursday after the break week, giving the clerk and the rest of the committee members a good two weeks to decide how we're going to finish this digital media study.
Tell me if you want to meet Thursday to decide this digital media study plan or you want to meet the Thursday after we get back from the break week.
Mr. Rodriguez.
4 p.m.
Liberal
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
There's no committee on Thursday.
Will Madame Lavallée be here on Thursday?
4 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
It's just that her motion would be the only item on the committee's agenda. There is nothing else on our agenda.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
I don't think we should have a committee meeting for one motion, if that's the case, so we could debate that motion on the—
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
So that's what we'll do, then. On the Thursday after we get back, we'll debate Madame Lavallée's motion. We'll also map out the remaining meetings of this autumn session for the digital media strategy, and we'll decide how we're going to incorporate your CBC proposal within that digital media strategy. Is that okay?
4 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Tuesday's the bill, and Thursday of this week there's no meeting.
4 p.m.
Conservative
4 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Okay.
I have two things to bring to your attention.
There have been a number of reports that have been tabled in the House. You have copies of the titles of those reports. I simply draw that to your attention.
Finally, the other thing I want to draw to your attention as chair of the heritage committee is that tomorrow is the twentieth anniversary of the Canadian Encyclopedia, which has been funded by the Government of Canada for twenty years. It's an all-Canadian encyclopedia and there is a big celebration at the centre de conférence, at the Government Conference Centre across from the Chateau Laurier, tomorrow at 5:30. It would be nice to see members of the committee there.
I sit on the board of governors of the organization that is responsible for this, so I told them I would draw it to your attention.
4 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
4 p.m.
An hon. member
Shameless self-promotion.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Okay.
Without further ado, seeing no other comments or questions, this meeting—
4 p.m.
An hon. member
He hasn't mentioned Justin Bieber yet.
