Evidence of meeting #37 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was negotiations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
And had there been cooperation between these 39 to 40 nations previously?
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
There's an element of cooperation at all times among enforcement authorities and at a private level among associations and so on among all countries on this issue. As I say, this is an attempt to create a framework for such cooperation and to enhance it.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Are those nations that we're concerned about breaching the international copyright rules? Will they be signatories to the agreement?
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I'm not sure at this point who will be a signatory to the agreement at the end of the day. The agreement, as I mentioned, is open to accession on the part of any WTO member country when they see fit.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Who will monitor intellectual property rights? Who will monitor that those rights are being respected?
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Well, there are, of course, a number of international organizations that deal with and have responsibility for intellectual property. In the context of the ACTA as a treaty, there would be a committee of the parties that would look at the administration of the agreement. But it would be really to monitor the effectiveness of the treaty. It wouldn't be to get into the day-to-day monitoring of enforcement activity.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Thank you very much, Mr. Ready.
Thank you, Madam Crombie.
Madame Lavallée.
4:45 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Very well. I didn't know when I would get another turn.
I have some trouble following your train of thought. First of all, the minister mentioned that the ACTA included high-level measures against piracy. That's what he said and I believe he used the expression “very high level”.
Everything you have told me and I have read so far leads me to believe that the agreement in question will not go beyond the current bill, Bill C-32. So what are your reasons for wanting to conclude this agreement at an international level when some countries go much further than this bill with things like the graduated response? I am not saying that it's a good thing. I am simply noting that they are probing further into the graduated response, among other things, in terms of holding Internet service providers accountable. But, in the agreement you are negotiating at the moment concurrently with the bill, it seems you are not going into as much detail because you want to be as general as possible. I just don't understand your reasons.
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Mr. Chairman, perhaps one way of looking at that question is to make a distinction between Bill C-32 and other elements of intellectual property protection, which are the substantive protections provided in domestic frameworks for intellectual property, and the enforcement of those elements of intellectual property protection. This treaty doesn't set new norms with respect to protection. It sets an enhanced framework for the enforcement of intellectual property, so it speaks to the kind of civil and criminal--
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
I apologize for interrupting you, but my time is limited.
What will the Canadian government get out of signing this agreement? What would the difference be without it? What would it be if Bill C-32 were passed? That's not my wish, but let's just assume it is passed.
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Well, I think there are a couple of advantages. First and foremost, one of the main elements of the ACTA is to create a framework for enhanced cooperation among enforcement officials, and also to create space and opportunity for technical assistance with countries that may need it with respect to the enforcement of intellectual property rights.
Additionally, the clarity that the ACTA provides with respect to civil, criminal, and border enforcement, which may only be generally touched on in other international instruments, is an important precision in terms of how Canadians and others are going to go about enforcing intellectual property.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
But weren't these rules in treaties that you have already signed?
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
The rules, such as they exist, for example, in the WTO trade-related intellectual property agreement--
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
4:50 p.m.
Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
--are more general and less clear. So I think the value added in the ACTA is the clarity that is provided to some of those norms.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Something else really surprises me. You came to meet with us and you are not very familiar with the agreement. Every time the members of the committee asked you to clarify its contents, you had a hard time answering. Is it because you are not familiar with the agreement? For example, I asked you a question earlier about Internet service providers, and Mr. Julian asked you what the penalties would be if they didn't comply with various sections in the agreement. You were unable to answer. Is it because you don't have the answers or because you would rather keep the answers confidential?
4:50 p.m.
Director, Intellectual Property Trade Policy Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
I cannot say that I am not familiar with the agreement. I negotiated it and I have spent a lot of hours on it. Earlier, when we were talking about the responsibilities of Internet service providers, I just preferred to answer by reading a text in order to provide you with the exact terms.
The other question did not come up in the negotiations. I have an answer but I don't want to mislead you. In my view, it is not in the agreement. It is up to each government to decide what the repercussions are if the provider does not meet the requirements. I just wanted to check that because we didn't talk about it during the negotiations. Once again, these provisions act as a floor that countries will rely on and will adapt them in their own legislation. In some cases, the consequences will be assessed at a national level and not necessarily in terms of the agreement. So this doesn't have anything to do with not knowing the agreement or with trying to hide answers.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Thank you, Ms. St-Hilaire. Thank you, Ms. Lavallée.
We will end with Mr. Del Mastro. Go ahead.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you very much.
Thank you for your time here this afternoon.
I just have a couple of questions, very briefly.
When we look at the international legal framework with respect to copyright and protection of copyrighted materials, and specifically, when you look at Bill C-32, do you think it adequately addresses the framework and some of the shortcomings that we see in the current copyright law? Is this something that you see as a progressive and positive step moving forward?
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Chairman, it's not within my competence to make a judgment with respect to the suitability or applicability of Bill C-32. We've consulted, in the context of these negotiations, with those officials who are responsible for that package of measures. We have delivered an agreement that we believe respects the content of what it is they're trying to do. But it's not the competence of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to make a determination as to whether one aspect or another is an appropriate element in that legislation.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Without passing judgment on that, are there any issues that come up in negotiations with partners, foreign partners, especially ones where we could see an expansion of trade or where there's opportunity to further trade? Are you hearing any concerns they may have with Canada's current copyright regime? And are they anticipating that we will in fact meet those, for example, WIPO obligations that we signed on to in 1997?
4:55 p.m.
Director General, Intellectual Property and Services Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Some of our major trading partners, the United States and the European Union, for example, have, for a number of years, been concerned that Canada's domestic framework in this area doesn't meet international best practice and could be improved. That is one of the rationales for moving forward on a number of fronts on intellectual property. The international enforcement aspects of moving forward, Bill C-32 and other initiatives, are part of the domestic response to those kinds of concerns from trading partners. So, yes, they do exist.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you so much.
I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman.