Evidence of meeting #9 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was artists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have 101 things to say. I agree with Charlie, this could take all night, but I have five minutes.
Let me just go back for just a moment to this idea of the levy. Correct me on this--just yes or no--but what you're saying is that the levy will bring forward some unintended consequences in a legal manner? What you're saying is that you don't want us to grasp the levy for the sake of it being the final solution, as it were?
April 22nd, 2010 / 12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Okay, I got it.
Nonetheless, it is something that is utilized by the group of artists who are currently out there. Is that correct?
12:40 p.m.
President, Canadian Recording Industry Association
There's a levy currently on other storage media.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
That's right. And you would not want to see that disappear.
12:40 p.m.
President, Canadian Recording Industry Association
That levy in and of itself will disappear through the passage of time.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
True, but to eliminate it for the sake of being an unfair tax is not a way to go.
12:40 p.m.
President, Canadian Recording Industry Association
No. So long as a levy is focused on.... If somebody goes and buys a CD or downloads something, if they want to make a private copy of that, and the levy focuses on picking up a small pittance for the privilege of making that copy, I don't have a problem with that.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Yes, and for some artists I'm sure it makes a bit of a difference. I just wanted clarification on that one.
12:40 p.m.
President, Canadian Recording Industry Association
It can make a bit of a difference.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
In Europe right now, the aggressive stance of government certainly has spawned a huge debate. Right now there are actually political parties in Europe called the Pirate parties. You get the idea of just how nasty this is, but there you have more unintended consequences.
Here's the other issue I have. We talked about the fact that there's illegal activity and you're not in favour of going after someone--such as the single mother, or my son--for downloading illegally. Herein lies the problem. There are a lot of people out there who don't know that what they're doing is illegal.
Parents would be shocked if someone came out of HMV with a smuggled CD of a single from Loreena McKennitt. But if they went through the venue that you said, through that site, which sent them up to the free site--ah, that's okay.
What we need to do, I guess, is educate the public as to what is illegal and not.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
How does that fit into the box that you're discussing?
12:40 p.m.
President, Canadian Recording Industry Association
I think what we've seen internationally is that you can't just implement a law like this and then do nothing. The government could and should be involved, as should business, as should all of us, in an extensive educational campaign to turn this around. It's not going to be easy, but it's worth the fight because music matters.
You're right, most people don't make that equation. They do think it's different.
But I have to tell you something. We have polled on this extensively, and they know it's wrong. They may be doing it, but they know it's wrong. They do believe as Canadians that artists should get paid for this. If we stop them, if we encourage them to stop, it will make a big difference for mothers and fathers who get a very clear message--which, by the way, this government is not sending, and past governments have not sent in Canada.
12:40 p.m.
Director, Digital Business Development, Universal Music Canada
I have an example to respond to your question as well, Mr. Simms.
As part of our efforts to understand what fans want, we bring groups of high school kids in to talk to us a couple of times a year just to hear what they're doing. To Graham's point about how they know it's wrong, I think they believe they're allowed to do it. They believe there are no consequences to doing it; I think that's true.
But it's interesting when you ask them about it. You say, “Okay, so you can take Jay-Z's music off-line.” They say, “Yeah.” So you say, “If you met Jay-Z backstage at his concert, would you tell him where you got his music?” They all say “No.” To me, that's a real....
The parents can play a role. The kids know it's the truth: that's what they're thinking; they know it's wrong.
12:45 p.m.
President, Quinlan Road Limited
From my perspective, as with many kinds of battles, they need to be addressed from a variety of directions at the same time. I think the very first step is a legislative step that does protect intellectual property. But there are a lot of other tasks and sub-battles to go on.
Just by that measure alone, it will start to...because I think a lot of people want to be law-abiding. Once they know what the law is, they abide.
Then it leaves this smaller renegade group, which still might be substantial enough. Then one can look at how aggressive the measures need to be, and more particularly how tailored those measures need to be, in order to be effective relative to the damage they perhaps can inflict.
I truly believe there would be a lot accomplished by just a legislative move. I too would share concerns about the levy. I'm very grateful that there are those who come up with such ideas to think that this may compensate creators in some way, but I do take the view that, as a business person, I would rather have fewer handouts than a strict and identifiable and predictable business model in which to conduct my business.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
First of all, you are absolutely right, Mr. Henderson. Young people need to be educated. I understand that. Ms. Gilliland said that she was already taking steps to do that and it's a fine initiative on her part. I do believe that it's extremely important to raise public awareness and perhaps to educate young people, because no doubt you have already noticed that according to the surveys, young people are primarily the ones who download music free of charge. As soon as they start earning an income and become financially independent, they realize that they must pay for music. In any event, in Quebec, this principle is widely accepted. The public must pay for music and the artists who produce it must be paid as well.
With respect to levies, perhaps there was a bit of a misunderstanding. I simply want to stress that, as Mr. Henderson pointed out, levies are an ancillary support measure. The legislation already makes provision for levies to be charged. It is matter of updating the legislation to ensure that artists are compensated for MP3 and iPod music downloads. For example, I'm sure Ms. McKennitt is already receiving royalties from the Canadian Private Copying Collective.
As I understand it, every three months, artists receive a cheque. The money comes from the levies charged on blank audio recording tapes—which are not used as much—and blank CDs. The levy charged on the former medium is 24 cents, and on the latter medium, 29 cents. It is simply a matter of updating the act. These levies do not provide the artists' sole source of revenue, quite the contrary, but this is part of what we now refer to as the private copying levy. Provision is already made for this ancillary measure in the act.
Since 1987, $180 million have been distributed in this manner by the Canadian Private Copying Collective to 97,000 artists in various fields. Using a highly sophisticated mechanism, the CPPC distributes the proceeds as equitably as possible, which suits everyone. Therefore, levies are simply an ancillary support measure.
That said, I'm surprised that you do not support this initiative because I could quickly give you the names of some fifteen organizations that do support it: ACTRA, SODRAC, SOCAN, the Canadian Private Copying Collective, the Guilde des musiciens et musiciennes du Québec, the American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada, the UDA—Quebec's equivalent to ACTRA—, and the ADISQ —Quebec's equivalent to the Junos. In addition, the Union des consommateurs not only agrees with , but favours the levies as well.
You can go ahead and respond.
12:45 p.m.
President, Canadian Recording Industry Association
We do support levies like this. We are also a member of the CPCC through our membership in the NRCC. It's not just artists who benefit. It's independent labels, major labels, songwriters. A lot of people benefit from the levy, so I don't think there's an issue about the existing levy.
Do we have an issue with levies that are targeted and focused on private copies made from those legally acquired? No, we do not have a problem with that. What we have a problem with are solutions that would have the effect of legalizing the entire world of piracy. I hope nobody wants that here, but that's what's on the table. It would have that effect.
It's somewhat disappointing to me that this is a part of the solution. It is a very small part of the solution. And I don't mean to diminish the importance of the money that people receive from this. It is important. It may pay the rent. It may turn the lights on. It does those things. But what I'm saying--and I think this is what you heard from Charlie and the others here--is that we need to focus on the bigger picture.
Passing a levy, including a levy, will not solve the problem. In fact, as contemplated, it may exacerbate it.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
12:50 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
