Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 29th, 2011

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, guests. It's certainly great to have been able to sit in on your presentation. It was very enjoyable.

My first comment and question are for Mr. Dinsdale. I have to reiterate what everyone else was saying here this morning, which is we certainly appreciate and value the success of the Olympic winter games. The best part was that we were able to witness the participation of all Canadians from coast to coast to coast, and I know this is what we want to look forward to in our celebration of 2017.

Coming from the constituency of Miramichi, I have three aboriginal communities in my riding. I also have the experience of teaching on one of the reserves in that area. I realize that this topic will be front and centre in the schools and will be enjoyable.

My question is, for those who have small communities like I have in my riding, how do the plans unfold for those communities to get involved--not only the students but every member of those communities--so that everyone comes to really realize the importance and the great value we have of being Canadian and of being so proud of our country? Could you tell us how this will unfold in each community?

[Peter Dinsdale]

I can't pretend to have all the answers on this in particular. I think that even with regard to the Olympic participation there was a lot of debate in first nation communities about whether to accept the torch going through their community, because there were concerns. There were concerns about the tenure of the land in B.C. in particular, the land that some of the games hosting was going to be on, and a concern that Canada has its history, so why would they be celebrating it? There is certainly not a consensus across the country.

I think what was successful about that was the effort of engaging those who were ready and willing to participate, and I think this process could do just that. We could put the call out through our networks and through our relationships directly with chiefs and councils in the communities, and with other providers, to say that there is an opportunity here to tell our story, to be a part, as partners in Confederation, of the witnessing of this, to be a part of the ceremonies themselves.

Those who are ready will come and will engage. I think you do this through respectful relationships with organizations such as ours and others to help open the doors and say that this is a safe place to work together on this project. I think it's an example of that “consult early, consult often” mentality of open dialogue.

There will by no means be consensus on our participation amongst our communities. They're very diverse, just as they were during the Olympics. But I think as well that we could find an important critical mass who are willing and able to participate.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

The next comment goes to you, Mr. MacKenzie.

Being a neighbour to P.E.I., I certainly, along with almost all Canadians, value the fact that P.E.I. is the birthplace of Canada, because you have a lot to offer with beauty and hospitality. I know that a lot of celebrations will be taking place in Charlottetown, but do you see celebrations extending out into the other little communities as well?

[David MacKenzie]

Absolutely. The philosophy we're taking is that the conference happened in Charlottetown, but this is actually a national celebration of that conference, and we believe activities should take place not only across Prince Edward Island but across the country.

One of the reasons we've been in discussions with Deborah and Paul is that very reason: we are looking to partners who can provide a trail from coast to coast to coast for Charlottetown. So absolutely, yes.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you.

I'll pass the rest of the time over to Paul.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Mr. MacKenzie, let me ask you quickly whether I can ask a question concerning Province House without causing you grief back at home. Is it okay?

[David MacKenzie]

Let's give it a shot.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I've never been to P.E.I., unfortunately, but I want to get out there.

I've read that there is a bit of debate over Province House and that there are some infrastructure needs required there. Where we are in that process? It would certainly be a real shame, if we can't come to...I don't want to say an agreement, but if by the time we celebrate 1864, we haven't fixed that important site.

If you can't answer that without causing yourself grief, then don't.

[David MacKenzie]

It's not a problem at all. It's an excellent question.

The Fathers of Confederation met in Province House. It's an anomaly in that it's a national historic site but also the working legislature for the province of P.E.I., so it's owned by the Province of P.E.I. but managed by Parks Canada. That in itself creates a lot of fun. It needs about $4 million worth of renovations to bring it up to working speed, if you will, because it has been neglected, partly because of the operating agreement and the pointing of fingers about who is responsible.

The great news is that Minister Peter Kent was on Prince Edward Island about three months ago and announced a $2 million contribution to that $4 million project. I think all of us are anticipating that the rest of the job will be done as part of the 2014 celebrations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Calandra.

Mr. Benskin.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

It's me again.

Something just kicked into my head, Mr. LaBarge, when you were talking about the part of the trail that is an actual section the Métis used in their travels across the country. I was wondering whether there was any thought to exploring and possibly adding to the trail some of the more significant trails that were used by the underground railroad to bring escaped slaves into Canada, again as part of that commemoration.

[Paul LaBarge]

I guess what I would say to you is that our first mission is to finish linking the trails. To the extent that any of these historic sections are part of that overall linking, absolutely we include them.

Our next step after the linkage is to develop what we call the feeder trails, so that any secondary roads that have significant historic, cultural, or scenic import would be the next phase of our mission.

One of the problems we have is that we're trying to eliminate orphan sections of trail. I know that we have a section down around Windsor that was funded by Chrysler years ago—by the Chrysler employees, actually—but I'm not exactly sure whether it's on the route. I believe it touches a portion of the section that was related to the underground railroad. To the extent that we can accommodate a section that is historically and culturally significant within the overall linking....that linking is our mission number one at this stage, because it ain't “Trans Canada until all of it is actually joined together.

Our next mission, right behind that, is the additional pieces that would then become contributors to and participants in the overall trail sections. The idea is to build the spine and then start to add on the ribs and the other bones.

[Deborah Apps]

Let me add something to that about our relationship with the Historica-Dominion Institute, which Paul has mentioned. Although there will be the spine of the trail, when we can identify, with our relationship with Historica-Dominion or with Parks Canada, what has happened five kilometres or three kilometres away in any direction, that's part of our development of the history. To be able to put this on our website, there may be discovery panels, as there are now already, that will be enhanced.

So although areas might not be on the trail, our goal is to point people in a direction where there are some interesting opportunities for them to learn more about culture and heritage.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Benskin.

Mr. Calandra.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thanks to all of you for coming.

Mr. Dinsdale, this is a question for you.

Mr. Simms is lucky to have the Trans Canada Trail at the end of his backyard. Not too far from my backyard, there was a discovery of a village of the Wendat tribe, I'm told; it was a village circa 1500 to 1530. It's a pretty remarkable place. They say that about 2,000 people lived there. There were some 90 structures on the site and there was a palisade. We're still in the process of trying to find where the burial grounds were.

They're naming a school Wendat Public School, but one of the problems is that nobody in the town has any idea why they're naming a school Wendat Public School. Nobody in the town really has any concept of what was actually here and that it was a trading route back and forth to Lake Simcoe.

I don't like to talk about resetting a relationship, because you're always building on a relationship. I find that concept almost...I don't want to say insulting, but a lot of people worked very hard for a long time to help build a relationship—not always good sometimes, but sometimes good. I like to think we're always building on it.

One of the problems we have now and have had in the past is that for far too long in this country when there's a special event we'll ask first nations to participate, and then as soon as the event is over, we ask you to go away. I think the Olympics started to change that.

In a community like mine in Stouffville, I don't think any of the school kids have ever talked to somebody from the first nations. There has never been a visitor to the school, somebody from first nations, to talk about what was actually happening on that site. How do we, as part of the 150, help people...? My town is 40 kilometres north of Toronto. How do we get first nations out more into the...? I know that you focus on a lot of issues that are very important, but how can we provide funding to—and I don't know whether it's funding or what it is—get them into the schools, to get them out there to explain what's happening? We have a great little museum in Stouffville and it doesn't talk at all about first nations who were on the site.

How can we do that and maybe start helping people understand that it's not just the troubles they might see on the nightly news, but that there was an incredible history before that?

[Peter Dinsdale]

Thank you very much for the question. I appreciate it.

I should tell you that I lived in Barrie for eight years and commuted to Toronto, so I'm familiar with the many Huron and Wendat remains being found in the Lake Simcoe area.

If we're not going to reset the relationship, then let's go to counselling. Maybe we'll start there and find a way to stop our past behaviours, and then go on to better behaviours moving forward. I think that's the intention.

There are many different players engaged with outreach to Canadians and engaged in this kind of cultural sharing. Again, a very important one—in the purview of this department—is the friendship centre movement. The National Association of Friendship Centres has been with you since 1972, when your Secretary of State.... That relationship has been maintained all the way through to today; I saw that their executive director came before you earlier.

There are friendship centres in Barrie and Toronto and organizations out there that do this kind of outreach. Are they resourced enough to do it all? They would probably tell you they're not, but they can make that pitch to you. I think it's just as important that they reach out to you as well, or to your school boards, to engage in more of an ongoing basis. There's a tremendous powwow in Toronto and all the school kids go down to participate and see active and live cultures. That's an important kind of contribution.

I think there are many partners who can participate as part of this awakening we're having in this country about the relationship. The apology and all of this residential school disclosure stuff is helping, and people are asking more questions and reaching out a bit more.

We haven't talked about our shared history with respect to those older peoples. My community is Curve Lake, Ontario. We have petroglyphs, which are drawings that were made, and we have serpent mounds and burial mounds in the shape of snakes. We have no idea why they're there. We were just told that the old people did it. We believe that the same old people were in St. Louis: these mounds were also built there and the same kinds of societies were developed. So there's a lot of history that we need to explore and understand together, and it's work that we can do together moving forward.

I got a bit off track here, but I think the idea of how we engage with each other with respect to recognizing our past is important.

There's one other thing I'll mention, if I can have a quick minute. I don't think we should be ashamed. Earlier, someone said we were going to be ashamed of our past at the 150th, but I think we should be proud of how we're going to move going forward. That's how I think we should look at it. Yes, we can acknowledge that past, but let's be proud of how we're going to behave moving forward. I think that's something we can do together. That's just another context I wanted to raise.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Calandra.

The last question will go Madam Boutin-Sweet.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you.

My question is for Mr. LaBarge or Ms. Apps.

In the Northwest Territories, is there a trail that leads to the Dene Nation?

[Deborah Apps]

I'm sorry, I don't know for sure about that. Mostly it's water routes, but we are now, just recently, in communication with our partner in the Northwest Territories, who is actually attending our meeting next week to talk about a trail they would like to build for 2017. So I would have a better answer to that in about a week.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

I have a piece of information for you. When I was at the University of Alberta, the Dene Mapping Project was being carried out. It was about mapping the traditional trapping lines. This was for the purpose of land claims. So maps have already been drawn. They could be very useful as far as trails are concerned

Andrew, would you like to share my time?

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Sure. Thank you.

In the introduction in this book, it's touched on that Canada's 125th was fraught with some difficulties, in that Canadians weren't in much of a celebratory mood, and the times dictated more than the planning did how Canadians responded to Canada 125. It's to your credit that you've managed to keep something from that celebration alive--

[A voice]

Well, I have my cat.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

--because I have to tell you that I don't think many people remember Canada's 125th birthday and the celebrations that went with that. You say there was a big block party and I'll take your word for it.

But here's what I want to ask you about. Five years is a long time in the life of a country like ours, and who knows what the political dynamics and the conversations of the day are going to be then? Based on the history that you have and the experience you had in Canada's 125th, where circumstances kind of overtook the celebration, how can we keep an eye on that?

[Paul LaBarge]

That's a very good point. I'll hark back to my experience as the secretary of Canada 125.

The first thing to mention is that Canada 125 was done like a nine-alarm drill. It only started months before the actual year and, as a result, we were playing catch-up ball virtually from the get-go. It had a limitation on infrastructure. It started with somebody within government and, during the course of that year, it transitioned away from that person to Bill Pratt, who had been the project manager for the Olympics in Calgary, as well as for Heritage Park in Calgary. Ultimately, Bill was brought in because they needed a project manager.

So a good chunk of the time was spent playing catch-up. The first thing I would commend to you is that what you're doing today is a huge step forward in terms of actually having a plan, as opposed to being in a reactive mode all the way down the field.

The second thing is that—when I look back again at the success of the events—there were well-attended events, but they were there and then they were gone. They had no residue. It was like a flash grenade: there was a little bit of ash and that was it. There was a bright light, a lot of noise, and it was done.

Consistently what we found was that anything that had a local impetus to it was a good expenditure. Wanuskewin is a good example of a site that is still running today for children to go and see. That was a good expenditure. The Trans Canada Trail, as far as I'm concerned, was a fantastic expenditure.

I think if we look to capturing the imagination of people, then I think.... In fact, one of my strongest beliefs is that what the Trans Canada Trail gives people is a sense of place, a sense of hope, a sense of community, and a sense of the future. Those are parts of the reason why it has endured. The reality is that it's a place where people go every day. I ride the trail every day; it's part of my life.

That's what we want to do and I think that's actually the impetus behind making Canada 150 successful: to create something that will continue to give to Canadians every day, on a go-forward basis. It will provide bridges across the country, bridges amongst communities, and bridges amongst generations. When you take your grandchild out for a walk on the trail, that memory will last a lifetime. These are gifts that will continue forever. So how to make a success out of it is to make it an icon—something that is so representative of us as a people.

I keep coming back to something, because I've heard a lot today. I grew up in a family of historians. My mother was a medieval historian who wrote 13 books, and my uncle was Mason Wade, who wrote The French Canadians. I lived immersed in history. When I look at the things I've read in my own past—such asThe Odyssey, The Iliad, the Norse legends, and the aboriginal legends...those are the types of legends that should be part of the trail. That's how we make Canada. That's how we make the trail part of our imagination and part of our identity: it becomes one of our icons. That's where I think the success comes from.