Canadian Heritage Committee on Jan. 31st, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

We'll get started. Welcome back, everybody. Happy belated new year.

Thanks to our witnesses for their patience. We had this matter we had to deal with in Parliament, and we appreciate their waiting here today.

From the National Capital Commission, we have Marie Lemay, chief executive officer; Russell Mills, chair of the board of directors; and Guy Laflamme, senior vice-president, capital experience, communications and marketing branch. As well, from the Royal Canadian Mint, we have Patrick Hadsipantelis, vice-president, marketing and communications; and Beverley Lepine, chief operating officer.

Welcome to all of you. We're going to try to move along as quickly as possible. We're here until one o'clock.

I understand we're going to start with the Royal Canadian Mint. You have a brief presentation, so the floor is yours.

[Patrick Hadsipantelis, Vice-President, Marketing and Communications, Royal Canadian Mint]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try to keep to our time.

I would like to start by thanking the chair and the honourable members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage for inviting the Royal Canadian Mint to present the commemorative coin programs and the implications of these activities on Canada's 150th anniversary in 2017.

I believe the work that the mint has done to celebrate Canada's greatest moments and icons, while meeting its primary obligation to produce and distribute circulation coinage to support Canadian commerce, speaks volumes about our commitment in supporting our national celebrations and milestones.

In addition to serving a transactional purpose, coins are also a medium for projecting a nation's pride to its citizens and to the outside world. The mint is proud to have followed this tradition by capturing the many different aspects of Canada: its people, places, and passions. We are even more proud to be doing so while generating robust profits and returning healthy dividends to our sole shareholder, the Government of Canada.

Before I get into the business of commemoration at the mint, I would like to offer a very brief overview of our diversified business. Operating as a self-financing crown corporation since 1969, the Mint is primarily responsible for producing and distributing Canada's circulation coins. But in addition to housing our Canadian circulation business line, our state-of-the-art facility in Winnipeg, Manitoba, produces circulation coins for foreign countries. Over the past 30 years, we have produced coins for over 70 countries, from New Zealand to Panama to the United Arab Emirates, thanks to our reputation for innovation, high-quality standards, and delivery. Our customers rely on us because the quality and technology that goes into all of our coins assures them that their national symbols will endure and resonate with their citizens for years to come.

Our bullion and refinery business has been a dominant part of our Ottawa operations lately, as worldwide demand for gold and silver continues to rise in tandem with uncertainty over the future of the global economy. Our bullion coins are sold and sought worldwide under the universally recognized Maple Leaf bullion brand. We have consistently led our industry by being the first to refine gold to 99.99% purity, which we call “four nines” purity, in 1982, and we surpassed that with 99.999% purity, “five nines”, in 1998.

We took an even greater step in that direction last November by launching an innovative product called “exchange traded receipts” under the Canadian gold reserves program on the Toronto Stock Exchange, which allows individual investors to directly own title to physical gold stored at the mint. By the first day of trading, $600 million had been raised in what became one of Canada's largest IPOs in 2011.

We're also proud of what we've achieved in our numismatics business line, which produces what are more commonly known as collector coins and medals, the most prominent of which are numerous Canadian military honours, the Queen's diamond jubilee, and more recently the Rick Hansen relay medal.

These coins and medals are important vehicles by which the mint celebrates a tremendous diversity of Canadian themes. We bring the story of Canada to life through coins featuring innovative technologies such as lasering, laser etching, and holograms, ranging in scale from half a gram to 10 kilograms, as was the case with the pure gold coin to celebrate Bill Reid's iconic sculpture The Spirit of Haida Gwaii. We are very proud to have produced a long line of coins celebrating first nations art with names like Alex Janvier, Jody Broomfield, and Corinne Hunt. Our collector coins are avidly sought by collectors and consumers in Canada and around the world, and they represent a very fast-growing part of our business.

Commemoration and celebration are also a part of the core responsibilities which we have proudly fulfilled since 1935, when the first silver dollar bearing the iconic Voyageur image was issued in honour of King George the V, who was Canada's sovereign.

As we speak, the Mint is promoting an ambitious array of collector coins for the Diamond Jubilee of Queen Elizabeth II. Just two weeks ago, we were also proud to take our first step in joining the national celebration of the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812 by unveiling a new Proof Silver Dollar dedicated to this historic conflict with the assistance of the minister responsible for the Mint, the Honourable Jim Flaherty.

Many annual silver dollar issues have followed since 1935, but it can be argued that the first true program was the commemorative circulation coin series issued for Canada's centennial in 1967. Every circulating denomination was given a new, iconic animal design, created by the hand of legendary Canadian artist Alex Colville. Redesigned only for Canada's centennial year, over 600 million of these coins circulated and were avidly collected by millions of Canadians.

Public opinion research indicates that Canada's Centennial was one of our most treasured national celebrations and our coins have been cited as one of the most remembered legacies of that milestone.

From 1973 to 1976, the Mint issued its most ambitious collector coin program yet, with an unprecedented series of $5 and $10 silver coins, celebrating the majesty of the Games and a powerful symbol of Canada's coming of age.

In 1992, the Mint introduced a new series of 25¢ circulation coins to celebrate the 125th anniversary of Confederation. For the first time in our history, the Mint involved the public, including children, in the coin design process by launching a national competition, inviting amateur and professional artists to create 12 new commemorative coins, one for each Canadian province and territory at the time. Some 11,000 drawings were presented to a panel of artists, public figures and citizens from across the country, resulting in 12 distinct portraits of Canada, icons of our broad and diverse landscape.

The Mint's aim has always been to inspire Canadians, to help them treasure their history, culture and values, and to make them feel proud to be Canadian. The Millennium was not only a turning point for Canada, but for the Mint as well.

Once again, we invited the public, including children, through the Millennium Coin Design Contest, to submit designs for 24 Millennium 25¢ circulation coins; one for each month of 1999 and 2000.

Public reaction to being given a voice in commemorating a national event was extremely positive, with 66,000 drawings received in response to this coin design contest. Again, our market research continues to tell us that this initiative ranks as one of our most memorable programs.

Since 2004, when we issued the world's first coloured circulation coin with the 25¢ Poppy and another 25¢ coin celebrating the 400th anniversary of the first settlement in North America, in Acadie, the Mint decided to issue commemorative circulation coins annually.

In addition to two other Poppy coins in 2008 and 2010, this gave us themes such as: “Lucky Loonies” for every summer and winter Olympic and Paralympic Games since the legendary Salt Lake City Games of 2002; the Centennial of Saskatchewan and Alberta, where the public was invited for the first time to vote online for the winning designs of these two coins; the Pink Ribbon campaign; Quebec City's 400th anniversary; the centennials of the Montreal Canadiens and the Saskatchewan Roughriders; and from 2007 to 2010, we produced 17 coins for the Vancouver 2010 Winter Games. Public online voting was also reintroduced to select the final themes that appeared on our 25¢ coins, celebrating the Top Three Moments in Canadian Winter Games history.

Recently, we celebrated the centennial of Parks Canada on a commemorative $1-dollar coin and we are continuing to release our 5-coin circulation series celebrating our legendary nature.

Every new commemorative circulation coin is promoted through varying combinations of print, television and online advertising. Additionally, the Mint is an avid user of social media to reach new audiences. I encourage you to take a look at our Twitter and Facebook pages where our followers are growing daily.

Every new coin issued by the Mint gives us an opportunity to strike a chord with the general public and provoke some reflection about what Canada means to them. Our experience with the Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympic Games was a pleasant revelation for us in terms of our products' potential for creating public engagement.

We opened pavilions in downtown Vancouver for both the Olympic and Paralympic winter games, and the reaction of the public and visitors completely exceeded our expectations. The Vancouver 2010 athlete medals and all our signature products were on display for 150,000 visitors at our pavilions during the games. Both of our exhibit spaces were totally accessible to the mobility-impaired, and we were especially pleased to easily welcome a great number of handicapped visitors during the Paralympic Games.

One tried and true way to reach out to Canadians and get new circulation coins into their hands is to hold public coin exchanges at which people come to an event venue to trade their loose change for new commemorative coins at face value. In this way more than 600,000 Vancouver 2010 circulation coins were exchanged with the public during the winter games.

We made such an impression in Vancouver that we decided to open our third boutique there in early 2011. We're still there today retailing our products and using our new store as a springboard for numerous coin exchanges and local outreach initiatives. Just last week we put on a very successful program of activities to support Vancouver's celebration of the year of the dragon, and we are very proud to be part of the community in Vancouver.

We routinely visit different regions of the country to take Canada's Mint to its people, from Baddeck, Nova Scotia, for the centennial of powered flight in Canada, to Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, for the celebrated Saskatchewan Roughriders centennial. We also value the partnerships we have with other federal departments, agencies, and organizations, such as we had with Parks Canada for its centennial last year or with the Royal Canadian Legion whenever a new poppy coin is launched. We also act as members of the interdepartmental commemoration committee and its multiple working groups. We value opportunities to join events and celebrations around the country, and that's what we intend to do on the road to Canada's 150th in 2017.

We continue to research themes and subjects that matter to Canadians and continue to tell the story of our great country one coin at a time. We also track the retention rate of our new commemorative coins to determine the extent to which Canadians are collecting these coins, and the results are extremely positive. We estimate that about two-thirds of the special commemorative coins we've issued since 2004 have been saved by Canadians.

We look forward to working with our colleagues in various federal departments to bring out the best of Canada to its citizens and to leave the lasting impression that our natural, historic, and cultural heritage deserves.

It will now be my pleasure to take the committee's questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you for your presentation.

Now we will move on to the National Capital Commission for ten minutes.

[Russell Mills, Chair of the Board of Directors, National Capital Commission]

Thank you, Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Russell Mills. I am the chair of the board of the National Capital Commission. I am very pleased to be here today with Marie Lemay, our chief executive officer; and Guy Laflamme, who is the vice-president of capital experience.

We'd like to start our presentation today by showing you a brief two-minute clip of how the NCC handles celebrations of Canada. This one in particular had a cumulative audience of 15 million people right across the country.

[Video Presentation]

That was from last year's Canada Day celebrations. It was a great occasion.

We're happy to meet with you this morning to talk about the capital of our country and the important role we believe it can and should play in the celebrations of the 150th anniversary of Confederation.

I'd like to begin my presentation by sharing two quotes with you that were received during a national exchange we recently conducted with Canadians.

The National Capital has the duty to be the mirror on our country.... In a few steps, in a few glances, one has to find the country as a whole in the Capital.

This is the second quote:

The Capital should, through its natural setting, monuments and architecture, communicate to Canadians and to the world our values, our achievements and our pride as citizens.

The first comment is from explorer Bernard Voyer, and the second is from businessman Thomas d'Aquino. They are among 30 comments from eminent Canadians published in the magazine Canadian Geographic.

At the NCC we have a diverse and exciting mandate to build a great capital for all Canadians that reflects our history, identity, culture, and values. To achieve this the NCC works closely with all levels of government, departments, and agencies, as well as private sector partners. We coordinate programs, public activities, and events related to the national capital region.

Before I turn things over to Marie I'd like to tell you about some historical celebrations in the capital, because the capital has always played a key role in celebrating the anniversary of Confederation.

To go back in history, celebrations to mark Confederation occurred in Major's Hill Park on July 1, 1867. There were all-night festivities, fireworks, and a 101-gun salute.

In 1917, the 50th anniversary was marked by a dedication of the Centre Block to the fathers of Confederation and the soldiers who had fought in the Great War.

In 1967, Canada's centennial was launched on Parliament Hill, in the presence of the Prime Minister and the Governor General, with the lighting of the centennial flame, a parade, and fireworks. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II attended the July 1 festivities on Parliament Hill that year.

The first sound and light show was created as a centennial project. And as you have heard in other presentations to this committee, some national institutions, such as the National Library and the National Arts Centre, were created or relocated in the capital as part of the centennial program.

In 1992 the NCC led the 125th anniversary of Confederation celebrations in the capital region. We coordinated efforts with national museums and institutions to create 125 days of programming to celebrate Canada in the capital. Canada House celebrated Canadian inventiveness and featured Canadian achievements in science, sports, and culture. The aptly named Confederation Park offered daily concerts. The Great Canadian Youth Happening featured Céline Dion.

Canada Day festivities were extended from June 27 to July 1. Among the activities was a performance by the National Arts Centre orchestra, in 1867-period costumes, on the lawns of the Canadian Museum of Civilization and along the Ottawa River. On July 1, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth participated in celebrations on Parliament Hill, along with many dignitaries and leading Canadian artists.

More recently, in 2007, the NCC, through different activities and celebrations, told the story of how, 150 years ago, Queen Victoria chose Ottawa to be Canada's capital.

Now I'll turn it over to Marie Lemay.

[Marie Lemay, Chief Executive Officer, Executive Office, National Capital Commission]

Thank you so much for having us today. It's such a pleasure to be here to talk to you about something we are so passionate about.

When it comes to the capital, it is so much more than a physical place. It's a place that belongs to all Canadians, whether you live here or not. The capital is both a window on the country and the face we put forward to the world. It is a place where we mark significant national commemorations and celebrations. We welcome, as you know, dignitaries from around the world. And it is in the capital region--this you may not realize sometimes--that the largest diplomatic community in Canada actually lives what I call their Canadian daily experience. They live and breathe our Canadian values, here in the capital region.

More than any other city in this country, the capital has the responsibility to showcase Canada's best and to be the one place that brings together all of Canada.

An important historical milestone like the 150th will need a hub. It will need an anchor, a place to anchor the celebrations that will take place in every community, and to connect with Canadians across the country to celebrate our past and to dream about our future.

Last fall, as part of the review of the Plan for Canada's Capital, the NCC set out to speak to Canadians about their capital. I must say that this was a privilege. We asked them, for instance: What kind of capital do you want for your country? What do you want your capital to say about you, about Canada? During conversations we held in cities across the country and online, we heard some very inspiring ideas. I think we could not have chosen a better moment. Indeed, the Plan for Canada's Capital has a 50-year horizon, but we have a 10-year action plan, and as it happens, 2017 is included in those 10 years.

Thousands of Canadians, including young Canadians, aboriginal representatives and new Canadians, told us they wanted the capital to represent them and what it means to be Canadian. We heard this everywhere, from coast to coast. Canadians feel that they should learn about their history and learn more about all provinces and territories of the country through their capital. Canadians also think that the capital should be more vibrant, sustainable and representative of our diversity and values, and that it should be a model for the country. They want to be able to see, hear, taste and touch all parts of the country in one place, their nation's capital. We've heard a great deal about the fact that the capital should allow Canadians to experience Canadian culture from every part of the country.

In a national survey conducted by the NCC and the Association of Canadian Studies, Canadians told us what the two most important roles for the capital are: the capital should represent Canada to the rest of the world, and it should represent Canada to Canadians.

I'd like to share an interesting fact with you: Canadians expressed a particular attachment to their capital. Indeed, 89% of Canadians rated their capital positively. That's more positively than the other international capitals surveyed: Washington received a rating of 76%; London, 82%; and Paris, 80%, when rated by their own citizens. However, the figure was 89% of the population in the case of Canada's capital.

I'd like to share a few lessons we've learned through the NCC's many years of animating the capital. I think these can apply differently to others and in different aspects.

We think we need to focus on a few high-impact activities. We should create a balance between the festive and the educational activities. We need to leverage the strong base that we have. In our case we have strong existing programs at the NCC; we have to leverage those. We can and we should create links with Canadians that foster pride and unity through broadcasts, online, and with new technologies. Just remember: we didn't have those 25 years ago, so we have to take full advantage of that. We must continue to develop strong partnerships with the public and the private sector. Finally, along with festivities, we have to seize the opportunity to create some lasting legacies.

The capital is the stage for national events and celebrations such as Canada Day and Remembrance Day. On July 1, artists from across the country perform in front of hundreds of thousands of people, including 40% that are from outside the region. Last year, more than 500 000 people were on Parliament Hill, and as Mr. Mills said, more than 15 million Canadians tuned in to the Canada Day noon and evening shows on television, on radio or on the Web. A 2011 survey indicated that Canadians felt an increased sense of pride when they took part in Canada Day festivities in the capital region, and visitors indicated that this was a great place to learn about the country.

The capital is also the place for national commemorations that are linked to important nation-building moments. Monuments currently under development include the monument to the 100th anniversary of the Royal Canadian Navy, the Canadian Firefighters Memorial and the National Holocaust Monument. A monument will also be dedicated to the war of 1812 as the country marks that bicentennial. We have several other commemoration projects that are at early stages of development.

The NCC has developed a very strong track record in bringing together partners such as national institutions—and we've had the pleasure of working with the Royal Canadian Mint—and museums in the capital region, as well as municipalities, regional tourism associations, and the private sector to celebrate Canada, our history, our identity, and our culture and values.

By joining efforts, we really feel that we leverage our limited resources and we ensure a higher impact for every dollar invested. For example, this year we're looking at Winterlude. We now have 50 programming partners who contribute to a greater offering of activities. We've actually decreased the budget and have been able, with partnering with the private sector and other organizations, to actually make a larger offer.

We focus on the federal messaging of the festivities. At Winterlude this year, we will mark the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812 and the 50th anniversary of the Canadian Coast Guard. In 2010, Parks Canada launched its 100th anniversary celebrations at Winterlude. We've also worked closely with Veterans Affairs Canada and many other departments to mark significant anniversaries. In 2008, we had the opportunity to mark the 400th anniversary of Quebec City in Canada's capital. In 2009, the capital participated in the Olympic torch relay, which coincided with the annual illumination ceremony of the Christmas lights on Parliament Hill. You may know that we've just finished hosting the NHL all-star celebration, and we've worked very closely with the organizers to be able to present sporting events in Confederation Park and on the Rideau Canal Skateway, bringing global visibility to Canada's capital.

Leading up to the celebration of Confederation in 2017, the NCC will work closely with several federal partners, especially Canadian Heritage, to mark events such as the anniversary of the meeting of the Fathers of Confederation in 2014, the anniversaries of the first and second world wars, and the bicentennial of the birth of Sir John A. Macdonald. With our expertise in the production of public events, our excellent public gathering spaces, and our ability to build partnerships, we can deliver celebrations in the capital region that will highlight the history of our country and the important contributions of great Canadians.

As part of our research this fall, we asked Canadians whether the capital should play a key role in marking the 150th anniversary of Confederation, and the overwhelming response was “yes”.

For the moment, we are in the early planning stage. However, we have many successful programs and partnerships that we can work with to make 2017 a key moment for the country here in the capital, and ensure that pride is shared across the country.

This national celebration will be a defining moment for communities all across the country. More than any other region in the country, Canada's capital region has the responsibility to showcase Canada's best, and to serve as a window on the country and to the rest of the world. The capital should therefore be the place that connects Canadians all across the country.

In conclusion, we have provided a look at how we work to develop partnerships, at the unifying role that we play, and at the range of activities and events that attest to the success of our approach. We think that the capital, by its very nature, can and must play a central role in our country's celebrations. It must serve as a driving force, to communicate and tell the stories of our achievements, and to generate a sense of pride in Canadians.

We have engaged Canadians in a nationwide conversation about the future of their capital, and 2017 will provide an extraordinary opportunity for the capital to play the role that Canadians expect: to proudly represent Canadian values and diversity, and to unite Canadians from sea to sea to sea in this great celebration. Rest assured that we intend to work very hard for Canada's capital to fulfil this central role in the celebrations of the 150th anniversary of Confederation.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you to both of you for your presentations.

We will now move to questions and answers for the remaining time of the meeting, beginning with Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank you all for your presentations. I found them very interesting.

First, Mr. Hadsipantelis, I saw that in 2010 the Mint had an income of about $2.2 billion. Was that higher than usual because of the Olympics, or is that roughly what you usually take in?

[Patrick Hadsipantelis]

I'll let my colleague, our chief operating officer, Bev Lepine, answer that question.

[Beverley Lepine, Chief Operating Officer, Royal Canadian Mint]

Thank you.

Certainly the Olympics did contribute to it, but it was not the largest part of it. As Patrick described, the four business lines contributed significantly to that number.

We have had an increase, certainly in profitability and business line operating profit, of about 200% over the last five years, so there has been a continuous growth in terms of the four business lines.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Congratulations on that. I'm sure that exceeded any goals or anticipation you had when you started the process of trying to monetize the interest of Canadians in coins.

[Beverley Lepine]

It did. Thank you.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Who decides what events are commemorated by the Mint, and what kind of process do you use to do that?

[Patrick Hadsipantelis]

We use a pretty extensive process through market research. That's the first cornerstone of the process, and obviously dialogue with many of our federal partners, namely, Canadian Heritage. We do annual research on commemorative themes. We actually have now complemented that by going biannually and testing themes ahead of time.

Our process to produce coins is done well in advance and takes anywhere from 12 to 18 months, so we're a little bit ahead of the game. Every year we have a list of themes that can range across approximately 50 different categories, and we go out to the Canadian public to measure the interest and appeal of the coins that we would then depict.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

So you project about 18 months into the future.

[Patrick Hadsipantelis]

Pretty much so.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Have you determined any commemorative events between now and 2017 that the Mint's going to take a special interest in?

[Patrick Hadsipantelis]

For 2014 and beyond, some of them were mentioned by our colleague. The year 2012 is a very rich year in commemorative events that we're actively engaged in. The one that was mentioned for 2014, for the 150th anniversary of Charlottetown, is a big one on our radar.

We try to balance the themes both nationally and regionally, because we do realize that when we go out regionally we're quite successful in connecting with Canadians. I think the example with the Saskatchewan Roughriders that was given in the presentation was a great example to showcase that. We had people lining up for hours to be able to connect and own a keepsake of that moment.

So while it's still early to commit to what will be depicted on the coins for 2013—because they do require approval from the Ministry of Finance—we have a good understanding of the high-profile events for those two years.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Have you ever commemorated tragic events? I'm thinking, in my area, of the Halifax explosion in 2017, which coincides with our sesquicentennial. I mean events like that. You don't really want to “celebrate” tragic events, but they are historical events. How do you handle that, and have you done any of those before?

[Patrick Hadsipantelis]

We have.

It's a question of balance, because we want to be careful about that. What we have most recently commemorated with what I call a collector coin is probably the Highway of Heroes. We did that in Trenton, and actually the work we put into rendering the design was something we took to heart. It went through many iterations. We wanted to depict the view that would be seen by those actually going along the Highway of Heroes.

It was also a moment for us to mourn and to showcase how Canadians have rallied through a grassroots movement, and how important that movement was for them. Again, it was very regional in nature, but it appealed to the vast majority of Canadians. So we have done that, carefully.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

You talked about the regional aspect. What are your plans for 2017 for the sesquicentennial? Are you going to regionalize some of these events, or is there going to be a national coin collection?

[Patrick Hadsipantelis]

Our view on that is to have a balance and to do it well.

The program that was done in 1992 is a good reflection of what can be done. There were 10 or 12 coins to depict all of the provinces and territories. I really believe--and I know that my colleagues at the Mint feel the same--that it's an opportunity to connect both nationally and regionally. When we do that well, I think we create the most success for ourselves, but we also tap into an opportunity to resonate and create more pride.

So in answer to your question, yes, that would be our intent.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you.

Moving on to the National Capital Commission, roughly what type of a budget did you have for the 2011 Canada Day celebrations?

[Guy Laflamme, Senior Vice-President, Capital Experience, Communications and Marketing Branch, National Capital Commission]

Overall, the NCC invested in the order of $1.2 million. The overall budget was more in the order of $3.7 million or $3.8 million if we include the amount contributed by other government departments and sponsors making up the overall investment.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

So it was just under $4 million?

[Guy Laflamme]

That's right.