Canadian Heritage Committee on May 1st, 2012

[Audrey O'Brien]

If I may stray a little bit, Mr. Chair, I'd like to use Mr. Layton's funeral as an example.

At 10:30 a.m. on the day his death was announced, I was in the office of the Sergeant-at-Arms. Elizabeth was there too, as was a key person from the Prime Minister's Office. We knew that there would be a situation to manage. We didn't know at that point if the Prime Minister would offer a state funeral, as he did, but we know that management would be provided, and we wanted to make sure that we made contact with the key people right away. There was someone from the Prime Minister's Office, since it was the Prime Minister's decision to grant that honour to Mr. Layton, and we wanted to know immediately what it was. We also guessed, naturally, given Mr. Layton's personality, that the party and the family would play a major role in the event.

Right off the bat, we all agreed that, naturally, we would respect the protocol for state funerals, in accordance with Canadian Heritage protocol, while respecting the wishes of the family as much as possible, which was essential. It was important that it all be worthy of the great Canadian that Mr. Layton was, whose life we wanted to honour and celebrate.

Everyone was instantly in agreement that the last thing we wanted was to have each side claim responsibility for the right to make decisions. I'm very proud to speak to you about this cooperation, which even involved the security services of the Senate and the House of Commons. The Senate security services helped the Sergeant-at-Arms and the House security service when necessary to provide enough hours so that people who wanted to could pay their respects to Mr. Layton. We also called on the pages who had worked with Mr. Layton the previous year so that they could direct people to the book of condolences. The day the coffin had to return to Toronto, Andrea McCrady, the carillonneur, prepared a special program in consultation with the family so that the music had a special meaning for the family and for Ms. Chow.

I think that's an example of something we can be very proud of. Of course, we had no notice and had to face fairly special challenges, since things happened at several levels all at once. I think this is a very good example of how things work.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I appreciate your answer. You spoke briefly about cooperating with various groups or services, including those that provide security on the Hill. There are certainly others as well. You also spoke about cooperating with Canadian Heritage for state funerals. I assume that when military celebrations are involved, National Defence plays a role.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I understand that there is good cooperation and there are good agreements, and that there is very little confusion about the division of responsibilities. The way the work is shared among these entities seems to be well-managed, if I can say it like that.

[Audrey O'Brien]

Yes, I think that it goes very well, overall. I must say—and this is more of a personal comment—that in the case of Mr. plus Layton's funeral, everyone cared deeply about having it all go well, that it would be a consolation to the family and that it would be an inspiration for Canadians.

To be very frank, in the case of the ceremony for Libya, for example, which was an executive decision, we tried to be very discrete but also quite present to make sure that the executive, in a burst of enthusiasm, didn't hinder the role and independence of the legislative authority, if I may say so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you.

It's good to see you again. It's not that we don't get to see you every day, but nonetheless, it's always nice to ask you questions.

I've seen and experienced the protocol for a visiting head of state with the flags. Is there a set way of doing that? We see the flags in the hallways, but what is there beyond that?

I was here when George Bush Jr. came, and we could barely move anywhere. It's a little different, obviously, when the leader of Lithuania shows up, but nonetheless, is there a set program per se for security especially?

[Audrey O'Brien]

There is a set program, and I'll ask Elizabeth to speak to that directly.

Of course, with the current world in which we live, the security posture is dictated by the risk assessment that is done on the danger posed to the visitor so that, for example—this is perhaps not the time to talk about the Secret Service—the relationships with the Secret Service and the security surrounding the President of the United States are such that they are well known for sort of taking over wherever they go to protect the President. We have managed that on a number of presidential visits.

Similarly, for example, again given the situation in the world, Prime Minister Netanyahu was recently visiting. Again there the security was very major, but I doubt, say, the President of Ireland would necessitate a similar level of security.

We are very flexible on the security front. Our Sergeant-at-Arms and the security services in the Senate work very closely with the RCMP to ensure that the security measures that need to be taken are in place.

With regard to the flag question, Elizabeth...?

[Elizabeth Rody]

Yes.

There are standards of visits so we, in our protocol jargon, will determine if it is a state visit or an official visit. For a state visit, the person is the guest of the Governor General and for an official visit, the person is the guest of the Prime Minister. It is a Speaker-led visit. There are different types of visits for which we have different types of protocol, if you want.

To come back, the question about security is very good. I've been in this business for a long time. Often we get trumped. Security trumps protocol, because we have to adapt to certain realities of the world. So even if a protocol officer decides there would be a great photo op outside, if the Secret Service says, “No way. This is not going to happen”, then we have to dress up a different area.

You will hear from my colleagues at Foreign Affairs next week. They are the ones who set the official standards for official visits to Canada. When they call me and say that on Monday we will have the President of Israel visiting, they will say it is a state visit and that he will be here on the invitation of the Governor General. So you will see the streets lined with flags, the Hall of Honour, the red carpet, and military honours at Rideau Hall. These all come into play when we have this level of visit.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

There is a role for the National Capital Commission too, I gather.

[Elizabeth Rody]

They play a role. Public Works now does the flags, but in terms of the question about flexibility, that's also where this plays in with the different standards, and we also have to apply flexibility for certain questions such as security or standards. Certain countries may not actually want our protocol. We offer it, and they may say no, that they would prefer this or that.

The art of protocol is negotiation, so we often find ourselves in a meeting room with colleagues from protocol on their side, and we look at what we are ready to offer and whether they accept it or not. Sometimes they may want more, and we decide if that's acceptable or not.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Is there any protocol surrounding a visit by a provincial premier?

[Elizabeth Rody]

Well, usually, a provincial premier is here at the invitation of the Prime Minister, so it's basically the Prime Minister's Office that will invite him to their office, and security is advised. Unless there's a meeting that would be held on Parliament Hill, then we would—

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

But there's no way of highlighting that the person is here, whether he or she is visiting, or anything like that?

[Audrey O'Brien]

Ordinarily, there might be a recognition. Certainly, we do that for ministers who are more commonly visiting, and in the gallery, but the premier might be as well. Obviously, if he or she were in the House for question period, then there would be recognition afterwards.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

But outside of that, there really is nothing to recognize the fact that there's....

[Audrey O'Brien]

It's more like a visit from family.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

See, you're far more eloquent that I am.

When a head of state, not a premier, but a head of state visits, is it problematic for tours taking place on the Hill? I think you mentioned that it is a working building per se, but yet it's one of the greatest tourist attractions in central Canada. How do you deal with that? That has to be difficult.

[Elizabeth Rody]

Because of the level of security, usually, for a head of state, tours are cancelled for the few hours that we have our visitors. That's the call of the Sergeant-at-Arms.

I don't know, Audrey, if you want to....

[Audrey O'Brien]

Yes. Ordinarily what would happen is that the tours would be cancelled, because you can't have the tours when you have the welcoming ceremony in the rotunda. The other thing is, if the visitor is still in the building, usually the tours will be cancelled until the visitor exits and goes off to the next event, again, purely as a security measure.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Okay, that's good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

Please go ahead, Mr. Brown.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our special guests today for coming.

Protocol is obviously something that Canadians are interested in, and they often get faced with situations that require them to learn a little more about it, and usually on very short notice, as we saw with the situation with the passing of Mr. Layton last year. There was a lot of information out there about what protocol was, but I didn't see it anywhere coming from a reliable source.

As well, Elizabeth, as you know, I've dealt with visiting members of Congress in my role as the chair of the Canada-United States Inter-Parliamentary Group, and we saw some situations there.

Often there are other things when we go as members of Parliament to events in our ridings. People often talk about the protocol of who's going to speak in what order, and somebody just says it, but nobody actually sees it printed anywhere. I know we've talked a little about this information being available, so maybe there's a way that Canadians can benefit a little bit from that, if we make it more accessible to them. Is that something we might be able to make more accessible to Canadians?

[Audrey O'Brien]

One of my continuing hopes is that at some point we will be able to free up Elizabeth and her rather astounding corporate memory for protocol events, certainly before she goes into the happy climes of retirement—not that she's thinking of doing that any time soon—and pull together what could be a helpful sort of guidebook or guidelines on the principles of protocol.

I believe the earlier witnesses were talking about that and saying that they were disinclined to have something like this, because people would be then stuck with the written word. I know that this is a danger, but I've been on the flip side of it, whereby you try to tell people it's a convention that the Hall of Honour is used in this or this way, and they say, where is it written down? So it all depends.

I wouldn't like to see us hamstrung by what would seem to be rules that are poured in concrete, but I do think that basic principles, which Elizabeth has told me many times, don't change from one event to another. What you're trying to do is arrange with a kind of invisible courtesy to ensure that everybody who takes part in an event is duly recognized for what they bring to the event and has the attention paid to them that they believe they merit by virtue of their participation, for whatever role they might play. That's where I think the negotiation comes in.

One of the things I've discovered in my time, certainly as deputy clerk when I became deputy clerk in 2000, and since I was named Clerk in 2005, is that the levels of protocol from one country to another may change quite dramatically. If you accompany the Speaker on a visit abroad, you might find yourself with motorcycle escorts and outriders and what have you; it's all very exciting. Then you think to yourself, oh heavens, when we reciprocate and these people come here, there's going to be some difficulty in explaining to them that we don't do it quite that way. “There are no motorcycle escorts except for very unusual guests, and sadly, you're not one of them.”

That's always a bit of a trick. What we try to do there is to say, what we are offering you is this. We want you to feel comfortable in Canada with Canadian norms and Canadian customs, and so this is what we would do for a person of your rank. As I say, it can be a tricky conversation to have, but we have people who are very good at doing it.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you, Madam Clerk, for touching on what goes on in other countries, because that was going to be one of my next questions: how protocol procedures differ in other countries. You've used one example, about motorcycles. Is there anything else that you have witnessed which comes to top of mind and may be different?

[Audrey O'Brien]

Sometimes what happens is, if you have a very different kind of political system—you'll have, for example, the Speaker in some of the other legislatures that we visit, who.... For instance, this is the case in the United States of America, where the Speaker plays such a key role in the governing party that his or her role in the city of Washington is necessarily different from what Speaker Scheer's or Speaker Kinsella's would be here. You have to take that kind of thing into account as well.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Let's talk a little bit about how things may have changed in Canada over the years.