Canadian Heritage Committee on May 8th, 2012

[Glen Gillies]

I agree. You have Mr. Kellock's story about the soldier from Quebec. I had a similar experience in Guelph with a paramedic when I was planning that service. When we all arrived, I showed up in uniform, and the first thing he saw was “Toronto”. He said, “What's Toronto doing here? This is a Guelph paramedic.” He saw later on what we were doing. Multiple units started to arrive and I was just coordinating them. That same gentleman is now the guard commander of the Guelph-Wellington honour guard, because he saw the importance of what we do.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Several years ago, there was a service for a fallen police officer here in Ottawa, and I found it quite moving. Your hair stands up when you see someone there in the parade and the uniform says, “Pennsylvania State Trooper”. Boy, that's powerful stuff.

[Stewart Kellock]

May I make a further point? The ceremony is part of it. The funeral planning guide in Toronto is about this thick, and it starts the moment of the death. It involves the transportation of everybody there. For Sergeant Ryan Russell, for example, 14,000 police officers attended his funeral. You have a huge logistics issue. You've got transportation, communication, feeding, motorcades, hotel rooms, flights, and you've got to work through our friends at CBSA to get the American folks in here. There are a lot of commonalities in those types of things, depending, sometimes, upon the circumstances of the death.

Unfortunately, because I've done so many, when something happened in Toronto, I was always volunteered. I went down to Windsor, for example, where they had never had a police death. They didn't know where to start. When you start bringing in things and breaking them down into their component parts—traffic, barriers, parking—you wonder about things like where to park cars when 14,000 people come into your city. So you've got staging areas. You've got the transportation of the people from the staging area to a form-up area, and they're going to march to another area, closing down the street. There is all of that coordination, and media is a huge portion of it.

So the ceremony, yes, it's important. But there are all of these auxiliary and tertiary issues that can ruin it, and people walking away from that say it was the worst best funeral they've been to, or the best worst funeral they've been to, because it had such an impact; it went smoothly, they got fed, they got their flights, and all those types of things.

[John Sobey]

Stewart and I both provided examples, as well as Glen, of having been called upon to reach out to other areas within our jurisdiction. In my case it's here in eastern Ontario, but I did mention other leaders who've been asked to take on and lead a line-of-duty death funeral, because they really don't know.

In my most recent example, communications being another component, the equipment I brought...having radios, so that where the firefighters were to muster for the march would be different from the chapel, or the funeral home for the escort service. So there's a communications component. There are a lot of things that smaller departments just don't know because of isolation, or location, or lack of experience, so they call on those of us who, sadly, have that experience.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Finally, Mr. Armstrong, you have the last question of the day.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

I'll try to be quick, and maybe Mr. Simms can grab the last minute for his question.

We're doing a broad study on protocol. What I'm kind of feeling now is that you almost have to take a look at line-of-duty deaths and the protocol around that as a separate issue, because I do think this is an important issue that has jumped out at me, anyway, during this meeting. I'm sure my other caucus colleagues would share that on both sides of the table.

If we work to establish some sort of framework, would you agree it would be easier now than, say, 15 years ago because of the use of technology and the Internet? Now you can have a hyperlink to one central website with a framework laid out, with links underneath for specific ceremonies, or specific divisions of emergency services. Is that the type of direction you think we should aim at going in?

[Glen Gillies]

Most definitely. The Alliance of Canadian EMS Honour Guards has that structure in place for EMS specifically, obviously. It is a great resource tool, and the minute we're notified of a line-of-duty death funeral, the very next communication to the service reporting is to go to this website—here is the framework—and then we provide a delegate to them to guide them through the process.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree 100%. If we had a database that we could refer people to, and take the structure and then obviously customize it to the specifics of the service involved and the area involved, it would definitely be a great starting point.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

You could even show videos of previous ceremonies to show people how to fold the flag. If you had one site that was established by the Government of Canada, being the national government, that's the type of thing you're asking us for today, I'm assuming.

I'm going to turn it over to my colleague, Terence Young, who has a question, and then maybe Mr. Simms can take the rest of my time.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much for being here today, and thank you very much for this input. It's exactly what the committee was looking for.

I'd like to ask Mr. Kellock, and maybe Mr. Gillies as well, a question with regard to the Canadian flag. Americans pledge allegiance to the flag. It has a somewhat higher symbolic level to them. We swear allegiance to the Queen, who holds the crown, which is holding the power of the Canadian people in trust. How should that make a difference in how we treat the flag? Do you have any suggestions as to what role our flag should play in our ceremonies?

[Stewart Kellock]

Quite frankly, it is the cornerstone of the ceremonies, and in the funeral business it is placed on the casket, when it comes to other presentations in the colour party of a marching group, if you will, or it is front and centre at a dignitary's arrival or departure.

I think the war in Afghanistan is giving Canadians a new interest and a new pride, frankly. The Olympic Games held in Canada did the same thing. You saw the Canadian flag being displayed everywhere, on uniforms and the like, and spontaneous outbursts of the national anthem. Canadians want to be proud of their heritage and their history and their icons, but we're not giving them the information they need to do what's appropriate. There may be inappropriate uses of the Canadian flag, perhaps on slippers or something like that, but we want to provide people with the ability to make the decision themselves on what they're doing.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Gillies, do you have any comment?

[Glen Gillies]

Echoing Mr. Kellock's report, yes, the pride and the expectation that surrounds our national symbol, the Canadian flag, is something that needs to be officially indoctrinated by Canadian Heritage, this federal government.

We're a unique system in EMS, specifically Toronto EMS, as we have a Queen's colour. We have our own standard, which was given to us in 2004, I believe, that we also use in ceremonial functions. Not all emergency services do. We were one of the first civilian agencies to be granted a Queen's colour, so we were quite honoured by that.

We use our Canadian flag in events all across the country, and yes, we need to have a cornerstone, a definitive way of dealing with our flag. It instills pride. It instills responsibility.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

On a point of order, since we didn't set aside committee business, we would like to know when we can expect the minister to appear before this committee before May 31 to discuss the estimates.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

That's not really a point of order, Mr. Cash, so we're going to continue with the questioning, unless Mr. Calandra wants to comment.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

May 29 between twelve and one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

There we go.

Okay. We have one minute left.

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Armstrong.

To my colleagues across the way, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

I'll start with you, Sergeant Kellock. Who spearheads the national, comprehensive guidelines with the built-in flexibility?

[Stewart Kellock]

Who would produce such a document?

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Who would take the lead on this, in your opinion?

[Stewart Kellock]

It would make sense that it would come under the office of the chief of protocol. However, it seems that the focus of that particular office is on international visits and those types of things. It probably should be under the Department of Canadian Heritage.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Would anybody else like to comment?

[Glen Gillies]

I agree, and using subject matter experts from the different services to develop such a document should be investigated.

[John Sobey]

Obviously, the members of the armed forces and the RCMP were mentioned as well, and one of the drill and ceremonial documents that those of us with a prior military background have utilized to fulfill our experiences and apply them to the respective ceremonies...it would certainly play a huge role. But insofar as someone at the pointy end, I would agree it would be through Heritage and protocol.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

Thank you to our witnesses. Your testimony today was very helpful. We really appreciate it.

With that, the committee is adjourned.