Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 16th, 2012

[Terry M. Mercer]

It is important in all parts of Canada. These are the important issues: that we don't forget; that we need to continue to reinforce this, whether it be homelessness....

Homelessness is not a problem that Toronto has the market cornered on. You just need to go to my town of Halifax. Even in some towns the size of Truro, where my friend Mr. Armstrong is from, you'll find homeless people. Sometimes we think of homelessness as Toronto's, Montreal's, Vancouver's, or Winnipeg's problem, but it really isn't. It's a problem that's in all of our communities.

It's through organizations such as the ones we're talking about.... But we also need to recognize that it's not only rich people who do this. It is very important to understand that some of the most generous people we have are the people who have very little. There are so many examples of someone giving who has very little.

In testimony before the Senate committee, someone related the story of a person within the group of homeless people who had fallen on even harder times; something had happened. They took up a collection among themselves. That's pretty significant, that they stepped up to the plate themselves. Yes, they would try to access other programs to help their friend, but if their friend needed that 50¢ to get something to eat or to help with shelter or clothing, they were there. It's very important that this happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Nantel.

Next is Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Senator, thank you. It's nice to see you again. It's been ages.

We mentioned earlier—I think it came from this side—the burden on the volunteer sector when it comes to the work they have to do. I'd like to relay a story about what I see in my neck of the woods—and I won't assume that it's only in my neck of the woods; it's yours too, especially if you're rural.

It's about the burden of paperwork, the burden of regulatory responsibility of volunteers. I would love to see philanthropy day look at issues of philanthropy. This is a big one, because there is so much paperwork to do for many of these people, and they get so frustrated. This is one of the biggest reasons why they stop doing what they're doing. They want to be helping people—there is a direct benefit in getting out there and helping these people—but they don't because of responsibilities from the government.

For instance, you now have to go through a security check, a screening. Now, there is nothing wrong with that. The system has changed such that if your name is similar to someone else's, you have to get certification to be involved with a school, a sporting group, and that sort of thing. If your name is similar to someone who has been convicted, tried, and so on and so forth, then there are problems. But the problem is that we only have one small office here doing it. We were waiting weeks for people in the volunteer sector. Finally they got frustrated and said “Forget it”.

There are people who sit on boards of volunteer organizations. People threaten to sue them. They get in trouble with Revenue Canada. Some of them are on the hook personally. It happens. We've seen it.

All this I think plays into the decrease in time given for organizations that are worthy.

Now, I'm not saying that these regulations are unnecessary, but it would be nice if we had, in conjunction with philanthropy day, the government making a concerted effort to help these people take the burden off them when it comes to regulations and standards.

[Terry M. Mercer]

Scott, one of the interesting things that doesn't readily jump off my resumé is that I was also a member of the Special Senate Committee on Aging, as well as a member of the Senate's agriculture and forestry committee, which conducted a study on rural poverty. As I said, these problems are not urban; they're problems across the board.

One of the things we found out about when we were doing the Special Senate Committee on Aging in particular was the burden that's imposed on the not-for-profit and charitable sector by the regulations that come along with it. Actually, I was in Vancouver, and I'm sorry that I can't remember the name of the agency there, but that agency had created their own specialty within the not-for-profit world in helping not-for-profits handle the paperwork of being a not-for-profit.

I think there has been a recognition of this at the municipal and provincial levels. Many of these regulations are not federal, other than the CRA ones. One of the things you should know, if I could segue and talk about CRA, is that the Canada Revenue Agency has done a terrific job over the past 10 years in reaching out to the not-for-profit sector and sitting down with them, not letting the not-for-profit sector dictate what's going on, but asking the simple questions.

When CRA asks a charity for a particular piece of information, CRA will ask how long it takes to provide that information and how much it costs them. This actually happened. The charity responded and said, “Here's how much time it took.” The person asking the question turned to his colleagues in CRA and asked, “Well, what do we use that data for?” The people at CRA said, “Well, we really don't use that data anymore.”

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

So it's getting better—

[Terry M. Mercer]

So the CRA people have changed that. They've said, okay, we're going to help to streamline the reporting.

That's where it works. It works when the government agency, whether it be municipal, provincial, or federal, sits down and says to a charity, okay, here's what we need, and then asks how they can best provide it and how it is easiest for them to provide so that it's not going to cost them a lot of money. What no government wants to do, I think, although there are certain things they should and must do, is put a burden on them that is going to add a huge cost.

The security check thing is always an annoying one, because it's something that's at the control of our colleagues on the government side, whether they be here in Ottawa, in St. John's, or in Halifax. It gets into the management of the police departments.

I live just outside of Halifax now, and I had a constituent with a complaint. She needed a security clearance. She was out of the country, teaching in Australia, so she needed a Canadian security clearance in order to be allowed to teach in Australia. She went to the police department in her local community in suburban Halifax, and she applied through a process that she'd used before because she had taught in other countries overseas and had never had a problem. Well, arbitrarily, somebody decided to move that approval out of Sackville, Nova Scotia, out of the province to someplace else. They centralized it a bit. That centralization, of course, meant that the stack on the desk in Sackville suddenly became very high, and I don't know whether it went to Ottawa or Gatineau.

Those are the regulations that people don't understand. It probably makes some sense for the management of the police department, but it sure doesn't help people who are trying to do good work in the community.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Am I okay for time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

You have 30 seconds.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

It's interesting that you say that, Senator. Just as a final comment on that, then, for National Philanthropy Day, wouldn't it be great to have an outreach program to say “This is what we provide as services of the government”?

[Terry M. Mercer]

That is one of the things that happen at national philanthropy celebrations, but those of us celebrating don't necessarily put it in that context. We do draw to the attention of people the services we're providing.

One of the things I would love to be able to do at some point in my life is to catalogue just that: all of the charities in the country, all of the work they do. It would not be to prove to government that they're not doing something. It would be to prove to everybody that there's a need and it's happening.

It would also be to show government, of whatever political stripe, that this is happening on their watch, and it's important that they pay...because there are trends that will develop and that may be spotted by charities before they ever come to the attention of government.

You, as members of Parliament, see this every day when you're home in your constituency doing your constituency work. You can tell there's a problem that is going to become national in nature before it comes to the attention of the government, no matter what political stripe it is. You have constituents coming through your front door telling you what these problems are, asking for your help. They're also going down the street and asking for the help of many charities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Senator, thank you. I applaud you for your efforts on this particular bill.

I thought Mr. Simms might ask this, but I'll ask it for him. Can you elaborate on what province gives the highest amount per capita to charity? Can you look at your stats and let us know that?

[Terry M. Mercer]

There's a reason you mentioned Mr. Simms, as of course it's Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Right.

[Terry M. Mercer]

Historically it's been that way, although you should know that Saskatchewan in particular has come up significantly.

Generally across the board, Canadians are very generous. It's a bit of a mug's game to do the comparison, although Newfoundland, on a per capita basis, is so far ahead, and even the good people of Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor are also pretty generous.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

You bet.

The reason I asked is that most of those stats were from back when Newfoundland was a have-not province.

[Terry M. Mercer]

Yes.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

It was Saskatchewan coming in at a close number two.

Really, income doesn't matter. It's almost like a culture that's developed. Would you agree with that?

[Terry M. Mercer]

No, absolutely, it is a culture.

One of the jobs that we have, using National Philanthropy Day as a vehicle, is to educate people, particularly newer Canadians, Canadians who come from cultures where this has not been the history.

There are some tremendous success stories. Your colleague from Scarborough talked about the work in the Tamil community. It's a community that has done an awful lot. But there are other examples.

The fact that Newfoundland and Labrador has been number one for quite a while, before they became a “have” province, is very significant, but I think it's more cultural than not. Even though Saskatchewan is a thriving have province now, I don't think their generosity is being driven by their wealth. I think their generosity is being driven by a unique culture that's.... Well, it's not unique; it's a culture that is Saskatchewanian.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

When I think back to what Canada did with Haiti after the earthquake, with the matching funds from the federal government, it was really a nationwide effort of giving to a country that was probably one of the most needy countries in the world. I see this culture building more and more from coast to coast, and that's what I want to get at.

As a professional fundraiser and putting forward this day of November 15, do you think there are other things we could do as a government to lead the way and continue to develop this culture? People give their money, but they also give their time. How can we as a government continue to build this culture of giving in Canada?

[Terry M. Mercer]

Interestingly, to go back to the Special Senate Committee on Aging, one of the things we saw and we made some recommendations on was the fact that there were a whole lot of things that didn't get recognized. One of the really big problems....

I remember being in Vancouver when this came up. They had a whole bunch of volunteers, but they weren't all in the centre, which was in downtown Vancouver. The volunteers came from all over the greater Vancouver area. They were losing the volunteers because of the exorbitant price of parking in downtown Vancouver, the availability of public transit to get them there, and actually, for many of them, even the cost of public transit.

There was the recommendation and the thought that government needs to think creatively and outside the box...and measuring how this is done is the problem. It will sound like a good idea, but the devil is in the details.

So recognizing volunteers for what they do, and allowing them some relief of some sort, such as a pass for public transit—

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

I'll give you the example of what we do for volunteer firefighters' tax credits.

[Terry M. Mercer]

Yes, indeed.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Measures like that show that we value the efforts being made by volunteers and those who give. So developing efforts like that is something we continue to look at.

I'll just go back to what Mr. Simms was saying on the streamlining of bureaucracy and the mountain of forms you have to fill out. As a school principal, I did mountains and mountains of forms for coaches and volunteers to come into the school.

One of the things we had to do was actually bring the police into the school, and we had volunteer night. Everybody went through the criminal record check that night. It was a good way to get seniors involved. A lot of seniors didn't want to walk into the police station, because they didn't want people seeing them walk in there and thinking they had done something wrong—it's a small community and everybody knows everybody.

I think there's something we have to do to try to motivate this massive demographic of senior citizens who are going to have time. Time is so valuable. I think time is more valuable than money, quite frankly. If we can build a culture and involve our seniors and value what they do, I think there are some opportunities there. Do you agree with that?

[Terry M. Mercer]

Absolutely. There's a gentleman very close to home. I live in Mount Uniacke, Nova Scotia, which is a small community about 40 kilometres from downtown Halifax. We have a volunteer fire department, a Legion, an elementary school, and one gas station—and that's about it. But we have a really thriving community.

My son has been involved in sea cadets for years and has been an instructor and is an officer in the sea cadet program. When he moved back home while he was doing his master's degree, he wanted to continue to stay involved. There was no sea cadet corps in our neighbourhood, so he went off and helped some cadets in another community, and he would travel there.

Last year a group of people, through the Canadian Legion in particular, said, “We think we'd like to start a sea cadet corps in Mount Uniacke.” Well, it takes money to get this done. The Legion, which was made up of mainly seniors, took this on as a project and raised the necessary funds for that. I talked to my son the other day about it, and he told me that in year two they now have 50 young people. Now, 50 young people is not a lot of people in downtown Halifax, but 50 young people in a community the size of Mount Uniacke, which can't be more than 2,500 people, depending on how you measure, is a big chunk. And it only happened because some older people in the community got together and said, “We're going to make this work”, and there was some good leadership from the community and some support.

Actually, this year I'm looking forward to having for the first time a full contingent of sea cadets at a Remembrance Day ceremony. It'll be very nice.