Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 11th, 2014

[The Chair (Mr. Gordon Brown (Leeds—Grenville, CPC)), Conservative, Gord Brown]

Good morning, everyone.

We're going to call meeting 11 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage to order.

The order of the day today is BillC-501, An Act respecting a National Hunting, Trapping and Fishing Heritage Day.

We have the sponsor of that bill, member of Parliament Rick Norlock, with us today. Mr. Norlock will have up to 10 minutes to make a presentation.

Mr. Norlock, you have the floor.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the committee for this invitation to appear.

This is my second time before the heritage committee with a bill. The first was almost identical to this bill, the former Parliament BillC-465, which is now C-501. What a pleasure it is for me to be here, Mr. Chair, to talk to you about Bill C-501 and my reasons for choosing this particular subject as my private member's bill.

I'll begin by saying that I looked for a bill that meant something to this country, that meant something to me personally, and that crossed the breadth and width and length of this great country. Hunting, trapping, and fishing are more than pastimes, they are the way that the first people who inhabited our continent—our aboriginal brothers and sisters—basically lived, because they had subsistence living.

This bill encompasses all of that, right up until modern day, and I hope I can go into it a little bit further with you later on.

As I explained, the first people who were engaged in hunting, trapping, and fishing were our aboriginal brothers and sisters. When the first western Europeans came to this country, one of the first experiences they had was explained.... I think if you look back, or I can remember in my history classes seeing prints and etchings of when John Cabot first came to North America in 1497. I can vividly remember a print of John Cabot's men lowering a bucket over the side of a boat and scooping up quantities of cod. Of course, we've mismanaged that pretty well as a society, and we're doing our best. But I think the western European's first experiences in North America had to do with fishing.

I could give you a quote but, having grown up in the Upper Ottawa Valley, I'll skip right along to my favourite person, Samuel de Champlain, who is credited with many of the discoveries along the Ottawa River and its tributaries. In many of his journals he describes—and this goes back to the 1600s—how he and his men would not have survived had it not been for some of the wildlife that the aboriginal communities along the way, primarily the Algonquins, provided, giving them some meat and some sustenance.

My grandfather, Narcisse Viens, who came from Aylmer but who worked in northern Ontario both as a filer in the sawmill and a trapper, related to me some of the ways that the first nations were able to take various bits of bark...I can remember as a child my grandfather sending us, during flu season, little packets from what he called the local shaman up in northern Ontario. And none of us got the flu that was going around because of this terrible-tasting tea that was made by fellow trappers he knew from some of the reserves in northern Ontario.

Of course we know that Cartier, in 1534, described his experiences in trading fur with aboriginals. It is from that, that our country was actually founded, and it was the fur trade that began not only the trade with our aboriginal brothers and sisters, but actually the exploration of our country through the North West Company and the Hudson's Bay Company.

One of the impacts that we have in our country now—and I'm going to cut right to the heart of the whole reason that I brought this bill forward—is, the reason we continue to have an abundance of wildlife in our country...and that goes directly to the people engaged in the occupations of hunting, trapping, and fishing.

Just as an addendum, because you may know we are talking about free trade, here is a little item that I picked up in doing some research: one of Ontario's top items in dollar value that we trade with South Korea is farmed mink. Most people don't know that.

Hunting, trapping, and fishing account for approximately $10 billion a year in commercial value. Fishing alone is somewhere...you're going to have a witness here later from the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters who will have the numbers at his fingertips. He's a man I know fairly well. If you take a look at commercial fishing in this country, you'll find that as a contribution to our gross domestic product, it is slightly under $2 billion yet angling accounts for approximately $7 to $8 billion per year toward the gross domestic product in our country. That doesn't include trapping, which is on the rise.

Just before Christmas I sat with a group of trappers who formed their own company. Their business in the last three to four years has increased some 200%, much of it with China, some in North America, a little in Europe. They said that, Montreal being one of the centres of our fur processors, they tan the hides or the furs. They process them to where they're ready to be made into clothing. Some of it is sent to China and then shipped back here. Some of it is sold there. But he said the Chinese prefer the jackets that are sewn in Canada. So we see a growing population looking at our fur industry which accounts for, off the top of my head, I think $200 to $400 million a year.

One of the other major reasons we have an abundance of wildlife in Canada is the organizations hunters and fishers belong to. I'll list a few. I belong to an organization that has reintroduced elk into the province of Ontario, and we have what is called a “limited draw hunt”. The other organization is called the Quinte Elk Restoration Committee. It's an offshoot of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, which is North American. It rehabilitates mainly in the United States, but as an offshoot of rehabilitating certain areas, we've begun bringing them back to their natural state in Canada. There the elk tend to do very well. I also belong to Safari Club International. It consists primarily of hunters who go around the world and hunt species in developing countries. This assists those countries in preserving those rare animals. So does Delta Waterfowl. I'm also a member of the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters. Their conservation efforts in the province of Ontario are world class. Many others are responsible for the conservation and maintenance of our wildlife species, not only fish. I've also been engaged with the reintroduction of Atlantic salmon into Lake Ontario.

In my riding, there's a creek near the town of Cobourg called Cobourg Creek. When the first farmers from Great Britain came here, some of the letters that were written to England said you could walk across Cobourg Creek on the backs of the salmon at certain times of the year. We know what happened to the Atlantic salmon in Lake Ontario. For various reasons, both overfishing and pollution, they became extinct. Then salmon were introduced, unfortunately, as far as I'm concerned. This is an argument in the outdoors world I come from. There's an argument as to whether it's good or bad but most of the salmon in Lake Ontario are Pacific salmon species. They do well because of the temperature of the water and they're resistant to certain chemicals.

But there's an organization of which the OFAH is a partner, and the Liquor Control Board of Ontario. It was actually started by a company called Banrock wines from Australia. Their corporate policy is that no matter what country they go into, they're engaged in a conservation effort. So they've teamed up with a group and we're now reintroducing Atlantic salmon into the Great Lakes, and we hope that's very successful.

So I've just given you a taste of some of the reasons why this bill is important to me. I believe it's important to Canada, and I believe it's important to every region in Canada, including our aboriginal brothers and sisters.

Mr. Chair, I'm more than anxious to answer any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much, Mr. Norlock.

We're now going to move to the questioning. We have the first round, and it will be seven minutes.

We will go to Mr. Boughen first.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to Mr. Norlock for taking time out of his busy schedule to meet with us and discuss this bill.

Rick, I'm looking at a couple of questions here. To start with, do you see some natural tourism benefits resulting from this bill?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Absolutely, I do. One of the reasons I drafted this bill, and specifically the dates in question is, while it is not exactly the same as a date in the United States and, I believe, three or four other provinces, when we first drafted this bill in the previous Parliament, there were three provinces that had passed a similar provincial piece of legislation, most of which were at different times of the year.

What really prompted me to choose the third Saturday in September was its alignment with the United States. I'm not sure about the province of Quebec, but I do some fly-in fishing and hunting in northeastern and northwestern Ontario. The outfitters there tell me that the decline in American tourists is significant for some of their businesses. Now, these are people who will pay $5,000 to $6,000 per week to come up to Canada and take part in fishing, and I'm almost positive of the same experience in Quebec. I'm not sure about Saskatchewan and Manitoba, but my gut feeling is that it's the same right across this country.

So I wanted a date that somewhat mirrored theirs, and there's a reason for it. The current president of the United States has made some statements in that regard and hints towards tourism, but primarily for conservation, and I could read that to you a little bit later. So the alignment was designed to replicate provincial legislation, as well as mirror the legislation from the United States, recognizing those traditions and their importance to our heritage.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Well this being budget day, I'm sure everyone is glad to hear that monetary number $5,000 for folks coming into Canada to hunt, fish, and trap.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

That could be the high end, but it's between $3,000 to $5,000. Quite frankly, out in British Columbia where I've hunted a little and where my son lives, people will pay about $35,000 for a certain species of Rocky Mountain sheep. For instance—I will use his name—Ryan Leef, the member of Parliament for the Yukon, used to be a guide. For a 60-inch moose—that's the spread of a moose antler—it was very common practice when he was involved in guiding, especially for the company he worked for that concentrated on hunters from Germany, Spain, and some other European countries, to pay $35,000 per animal. That includes the guide and the food. So this is large money, and that money is used by the provinces and put right back into other conservation efforts.

I can give you a little breakdown. This information comes from Gary Mauser. The report was filed back in 1997 or 1998, I believe. I'll just read you the beginning to show you the importance of hunters, fishers, and trappers. The beginning of the study indicates:

A recently completed study of Canadian hunting licence fees compiled by Gary Mauser, Vice President of the B.C. Wildlife Federation, shows that hunters in Canada pay to the government, on average, almost $70 million per year in hunting licences and fees. This equates to what the provinces spend to manage their wildlife populations.

You can see how the people who are actually are engaged in those occupations and pastimes are actually the people who contribute to the maintenance of the species that they hunt. It is estimated in the United States that there are far more white-tailed deer in North America now than when the white man first came to North America. That's for various reasons: habitat, and the ability of white-tailed deer and other wildlife species to adapt to encroachment in their areas, and also because of the conservation efforts of the very people who hunt them.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Chair, how much time do we have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

You have about two minutes and 15 seconds—lots of time.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Give or take a second or two, I'm sure.

Rick, who do you see this bill pertaining to in terms of the general population?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I don't have the exact numbers, but let me just say this. It's estimated that at least 45% to 50% of Canadians, the way I understand it—and I think I'm being very small-c conservative with those numbers—are engaged in some form of those activities, primarily angling.

Also part of my rationale for this bill is this: new Canadians. Part of my riding is, of course, Lake Ontario, and Rice Lake and parts of the Trent-Severn, as well as other small creeks and rivers. If you go there at any time, and especially during the spring, summer, and early fall, you'll find that a lot of new Canadians are engaged in that pastime of fishing offshore, of renting boats, and going out. This is a pastime that a lot of new Canadians are involved in. It helps them to become part of the Canadian mosaic, because these are the pastimes that Canadians have been engaged in since time immemorial, and I include in that our first nations aboriginal brothers and sisters.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much, Mr. Boughen.

We'll move to Mr. Nantel for seven minutes.

I understand that you're going to share your time with your colleagues.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You understood perfectly.

Thank you for being here this morning, Mr. Norlock. You must be proud that you have brought your bill this far and I congratulate you for it. It is a subject that reflects the Canadian-ness that we here at the Canadian heritage committee have to build.

We on this side are also very aware of the importance of the environmental information that hunters and anglers can pass along just from their day-to-day observations, whether it is about the prevalence, or otherwise, of certain species or about anything else. The information is quite pertinent.

Right from the outset, your bill talks about the history and the importance of Aboriginal peoples. Of course, there was also the arrival of settlers from Europe. Is it your impression that First Nations welcome your bill?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Yes, I am sure it is positively received.

I say that because many of our first nations brothers and sisters, both in northern Quebec and across the reaches of this country, are now becoming engaged in the business of tourism and are operating more and more camps. If you take a look at government initiatives, you'll find some of the things that the ministers of aboriginal affairs in both the previous Liberal government and our current government have encouraged our first nations brothers and sisters to get involved in.

One of the figures I can recall off the top of my head for northern...and when I refer to northern, I'm talking about the real farther reaches of the north. We have somewhere in the vicinity of 400,000 visitors a year going to our north. That's not just for hunting, fishing, and trapping. What we have now is ecotourism. I think your former member, who's now a member of the Green Party, Mr. Hyer, and his business—I know it's at arm's-length—now have switched from hunting and fishing. He's more involved in ecotourism, which in and of itself is a great boon to the economy.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I will pass the floor to my colleague.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Merci.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Norlock. I have a couple of questions.

In the bill, you talk about the millions of Canadians who participate in hunting and fishing. Do you have an exact number? How many are there? Is it increasing? We heard some time ago that it was on the decline. Is it experiencing a renaissance?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Actually, in certain parts of the country....

For instance, in the upper Ottawa Valley—not far from here, maybe 60 kilometres or so—my family has hunted white-tailed deer on a piece of crown land. We have what's referred to as a pole camp.

I can tell you that the numbers of young hunters are going down. Why? Well, I think one of the major reasons is demographics. I come from a family of six. I'm the eldest of six kids. Most people are having one or two children. Really it's the demographics.

That said, it was one of your members of Parliament, Madam Moore, who indicated during debate at second reading that she is part of a growing number of women who are now engaged. I can give you a personal anecdote as an example of that. In our hunting group, which just tends to be family and friends—it changes from year to year, with the availability of people for holidays—it was strictly male. Last year two young ladies hunted with us, because they were very much interested, and one of them even got a taste of field dressing her first animal.

It is growing, but angling is definitely on the increase. As I mentioned to you, this is especially with regard to new Canadians. They can come from areas in certain parts of the world where there really are no fish because of pollution and other reasons. Fish that we consider to be coarse fish.... I call them sunfish, or rock bass. I've sat with many people from Caribbean regions who come in family groups along the Trent-Severn Waterway.

So angling is on the increase, and I think hunting is holding its own. It's growing in certain areas, and in other areas there is some reduction.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

I believe Monsieur Lapointe had some questions.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Good morning, Mr. Norlock. Thank you for joining us to talk about your private member’s bill. As you have guessed, this bill stands a good chance of being supported by all the members here. It is going to turn out very well.

You mentioned that, in the 18th century, people remarked on the great abundance they found in Canada. It was the same in New France. Frenchmen visiting New France said that one only had to put a line in the water for three minutes to catch a salmon. Our ancestors lived like kings in that extremely bountiful environment.

The situation has fluctuated since, of course. The little information I have comes from friends and hunting associations. They are the people who are able to tell me, for example, that the moose population in the Chaudière-Appalaches region has decreased, but that it is very large in the Matane region. That is why Americans who are able to go there to hunt pay a fortune to do so because their chances of killing an animal are very good. But the moose population has decreased in some parts of the Chaudière-Appalaches region.

I was wondering how you view the day itself. You are talking about an official day, I know. People will be made aware that, for a long time, trappers and hunters have been playing a major role, that they are part of our heritage, and that they help to maintain the inventory of our natural riches.

That said, how do you actually see things? For example, will it mean that associations will be able to take advantage of a day that is turned over to them? Will they be able to provide Canadians with more information? I like knowing the little I know, but I learned it because of them. I had to go and meet them. It is information that we hear very little about in public, in the media, and so on.

Do you see the day making it possible for the skills that our hunting and fishing associations have to be become better known?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Let me answer your question this way. One of the reasons we're before the heritage committee is that these occupations are part of our Canadian heritage. It doesn't matter what part of Canada you come from, whether you come from Quebec or whether you come from Saskatchewan or British Columbia, they're all part of our heritage.

It is not up to somebody else to do something, sir. It is up to you and me to do something. So I'm going to give you a challenge. It looks to me like this will receive royal assent in this Parliament. Wouldn't it be a good idea, especially for those of us members from rural ridings? I have to say, though, that we have members in the GTA. There are a lot of fishing outfitters embedded in our bigger cities, because Lake Ontario is full of very good species of fish. You name it, Lake Ontario pretty well has it, and the same goes for Quebec.

So isn't it up to you and me, as members of Parliament, to make sure we carry on those traditions, to encourage them in our ridings, and to contact those institutions and those clubs that are engaged in that process?

You know, what I—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Mr. Norlock, we're going to have to move along to Monsieur Dion. I'm sure you'll get a chance to expand on that again.

Thank you.

Monsieur Dion, go ahead for seven minutes.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Merci, Monsieur le président.

I'll continue in the same vein.

Mr. Norlock, I fully understand where you're coming from with this bill. Indeed Canada, at least in its European reality, was built on beaver trapping. If not for beaver trapping, the country may never have existed as we know it. So I fully understand why we need to have a day to celebrate that.

But the second step is that we trapped the beavers so much that they almost disappeared. The third step is that now there are so few trappers in some regions, at least in my province, that we have too many beavers and dams. So I understand why you are proposing that, and I agree, but I would like to ask why the second part of this story has not been mentioned anywhere in your bill, and that is that we need hunting, fishing, and trapping that are sustainable. We have learned to do that, but we have a lot more to learn, and the people involved in these activities may be a great help as part of the solution. In the past we have not been careful enough and we have been part of the problem. In my province, for example, and in other places in North America—

There was a bird, not at all a timid one, that people liked to eat—the passenger pigeon. Because of the use of poles, the passenger pigeon was exterminated. It no longer exists. The bison almost disappeared too. That is part of our history.

That is why I would have liked a mention somewhere in the bill that the day would be used to promote…

sustainable trapping, hunting and fishing.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

With all due respect, Mr. Dion, they are going to be sustainable. Do you know why they're going to be sustainable? It is because of the people who are engaged in those activities that they're going to be sustainable. It is the hunters, the fishers, and the trappers who want to ensure that not only for themselves.... In my case, it's not only for myself and for my two sons, but for my grandchildren, one of whom, my granddaughter, received a .22 rifle for Christmas because her dad wants to take her hunting in British Columbia when she reaches the age of 10. I was surprised that in B.C. you can hunt accompanied from 10 years old. In Ontario, I believe it's around 16 and I think in Quebec it's the same thing.

Mr. Dion, every single wildlife federation or group across this country was contacted in my first iteration, and we made sure that they're still in favour of this bill. Let me give you an example. I was about to say to the previous questioner that when I was engaged in the reintroduction of salmon into Lake Ontario, we were out with some high school children and we were rehabilitating the Cobourg Creek in certain areas in a safe manner. So we collected the bicycles and tires out of the water so that the fish could properly....Then, of course, the salmon were released and we planted trees along the bank because salmon like to have a shaded area in order to spawn.

As I told the high school students, there are two kinds of conservationists out there. There are the conservationists who grab a sign and march up and down the streets of our cities, towns, and villages demanding somebody do something about conservation. Then there are the people who actually roll up their sleeves and do something about it. I said, “You are people who roll up your sleeves and do something about it.” The wildlife federations, the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, the Sierra Club: the principal aim of all these wildlife organizations is to ensure conservation. So it is the very people who are engaged in these activities who will ensure....

With regard to the beaver, I'm going to tell you something else that we MPs need to do. We need to tell those people who think it's terrible to wear a beaver coat.... I purposely bought my wife one, because my grandpa told me a long-haired beaver is the longest-wearing coat, so if I was going to spend some money, I'd make sure that I bought one that would last. If we want to do something good for our hunters and our trappers, particularly our aboriginal trappers, and if we really care about our aboriginals, we'll wear sealskin coats; we'll buy our wives fur coats; and we'll wear fur coats. That's how we will sustain those species, because the trappers will not trap them into extinction.

Mr. Dion, in the past we did some of the things because we didn't understand conservation. We didn't understand that these things didn't miraculously happen and that, as an intelligent species, man had to manage those species. So as members of Parliament, the guys should be buying their wives fur coats and the wives should be buying their husbands fur coats if we really want to help sustain our aboriginal brothers and sisters, because these are their traditional things.

Just anecdotally speaking, when I visited Canada's largest penitentiary, Warkworth Institution, which is in my riding—and I forget the name of the program for the aboriginals to bring back pride in who they are—one of the things they were beginning to learn how to do was to properly skin and prepare muskrats and other animals in order to engage in traditional activities. It's up to us to help them.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Norlock, I like your passion very much. I would like to ask a second question.

What, concretely, do you hope to have as activities during these annual days? What—concretely—will we do?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

What I hope, what I'm going to do, and what I hope each and every one of you do, and you pass on to your confreres and your various caucuses as members of Parliament.... We can do something from our offices, can't we? We can meet the local fish and game clubs—this is good politics too—and encourage them to encourage some of the young folks.

You can ask one of the witnesses coming up.... The Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters put on a family fishing day, and they encouraged parents to teach their children to get engaged in angling.

Here's what I tell folks when they come to me and say they're all stressed out. “Don't bother taking that medication to reduce your stress that you went to see your doctor about. Park your rear end in a boat with a fishing rod in your hand, or sit at the end of the dock, or on the banks of a river, stream, or lake, and put that line in the water. You'll find pretty darn soon that most of your troubles will go away.”

My most relaxing moments are when I'm sitting in the woods, waiting for, as I always say—I suppose I'm going to be criticized for this—a suicidal deer to run by, or for a fish that wants to hang itself on my hook. I don't care about getting either one of those, I just enjoy being where I am, because it's relaxing and I'm engaged in something that I love.