Canadian Heritage Committee on April 1st, 2015

[The Chair (Mr. Gordon Brown (Leeds—Grenville, CPC)), Conservative, Gord Brown]

Good afternoon, everyone. We are going to call to order meeting number 39 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Today the orders of the day have our studying Bill S-219, an act respecting a national day of commemoration of the exodus of Vietnamese refugees and their acceptance in Canada after the fall of Saigon and the end of the Vietnam War.

In this first session we have two different groups with us. We have Senator Ngo, who is the sponsor of this bill in the Senate. Then we have some folks from the Canada–Vietnam Trade Council. Each of the two groups will have up to eight minutes.

We are going to start with Senator Ngo. You have the floor. I think you're going to share that time with Mr. Nguyen. You have up to eight minutes.

[Thanh Hai Ngo, Senator, CPC, Senate]

Thank you, Chair.

Dear colleagues, I understand votes are expected today. With the committee's agreement, I will keep my opening testimony short and concise. However, I would like my full remarks, which have been distributed in both official languages, to be registered in the record.

[See appendix]

It is with great appreciation that I appear before the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage to talk about the journey to freedom day act, which seeks to recognize April 30 of every year as the day marking the end of the fall of Saigon; commemorating the Vietnamese refugees' exodus; and recognizing the fundamental role played by the Canadian people, who welcomed thousands and thousands of the Vietnamese refugees with open arms. For Canadians of Vietnamese origin, April 30 depicts a dark day when they lost their country, their home, their families, and their friends; when they began their exodus as refugees and embarked on that perilous journey to freedom.

Quite simply said, the significance of the journey to freedom day act on April 30 is threefold.

First, it marks the tragic event of the exodus of the Vietnamese refugees who fled their homeland after the fall of Saigon on April 30, 1975.

Second, it pays tribute to all Canadians and the Government of Canada, who rose to the challenge and welcomed thousands of refugees with open arms.

Third, it celebrates the incredible contributions of the Vietnamese refugees, who have contributed to the building of our great country Canada.

The events that followed the fall of Saigon marked the beginning of the refugees' crisis and the start of the exodus of millions of people fleeing Vietnam. Canada's experience with the Vietnamese refugees' exodus began during the fall of Saigon. In fact, after the fall of Saigon on May 1, 1975, Canada immediately recognized the plight of the Vietnamese people trying to escape, and declared it would sponsor refugees with relatives already in Canada.

Canada became an international leader through its creation of a private refugee sponsorship program. Without the kindness and generosity of thousands of Canadians, and the dedication, support and cooperation of the Canadian government, refugee agencies, non-governmental organizations and religious groups, it would simply have been impossible to welcome so many people in such dire straits.

For the last 39 years, Vietnamese communities across Canada have gathered on April 30 in a ceremony to commemorate memories of loss and grief, to collectively remember their perilous journey, to share their heritage, and to express their gratitude for Canada's historic role.

It is with this brief comment that I humbly ask for your support as we move Bill S-219 forward and recognize our shared heritage.

Thank you very much for giving me your attention.

It is my pleasure to answer your questions afterwards.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

We'll continue. In this eight minutes, we'll move over to Mr. Nguyen, from the Vietnamese Association of Toronto.

[James Lam Nguyen, President, Vietnamese Association Toronto]

Good afternoon, committee members and Chair. Merci beaucoup.

I also understand that votes are expected today. With the committee's agreement, I will keep my opening statement very short and concise. I agree, however, with the senator. I would like my remarks, which have been distributed in both official languages, to be registered in the record.

[See appendix]

My name is James Nguyen. I am the current president of the Vietnamese Association Toronto, or VAT, one of the oldest Vietnamese organizations and biggest in Canada. I am honoured to be before you to provide my unwavering support for Bill S-219 and to explain why this act, recognizing April 30 of every year, is meaningful for the Vietnamese Canadian community.

I left Vietnam, like many of my fellow Vietnamese Canadians, in the events that followed the fall of Saigon on April 30, 1975. My journey to freedom started in the fall of 1980 by boat, with my older sister and three older brothers. We stayed in a Malaysian refugee camp by the name of Pulau Bidong for approximately six months before Canada generously accepted us in March 1981. We stayed briefly in Quebec and eventually resided in Edmonton, Alberta.

Our journey lasted about six days and five nights before we disembarked in Malaysia. On the boat journey—as some of you may know, it is a perilous journey—we encountered Thai pirates. There was a story that was recounted to me by several people who were on the boat. I was only six years old, so I didn't know much. When the Thai pirates come onto your boat, they generally steal things or loot things, and they generally take the women with them. My sister was almost taken.

A man whose wife and daughter were taken onto the Thai pirates' boat tried to commit suicide by jumping overboard. He thought that because his wife and daughter had been taken, his life was hopeless, so he wanted to kill himself. When the Thai pirates saw this, they ordered all the women back to our boat. I guess they have some honour among thieves and were afraid that this man would come back to haunt them. That is one story that I can relate to you from my experience.

My story is not unique, as there are many refugee stories similar to mine. The country I left behind is just a distant memory, almost 35 years old now, and all of my good memories are of Canada. I remember playing street hockey in the cold winter months in Edmonton and pretending I was Wayne Gretzky or Mark Messier and using an empty beer bottle with aluminum foil as the Stanley Cup in the back streets of Edmonton.

As a leader of the biggest Vietnamese community in Canada, I attend many events on a weekly basis. There is overwhelming support for this bill whenever the conversation comes up. This bill is important to me and to those I encounter in the community, because it acknowledges our heritage.

Let me state clearly that I do not believe this bill is anti-Vietnam or anti-Vietnamese government. I genuinely believe that the people of Vietnam are a beautiful people, with so much culture and history. This bill is a testimony of my and the rest of the Vietnamese Canadians' journey as refugees to Canada and of the journey of others after April 30, 1975, to our newly adopted homeland of Canada. I think that remembering April 30 is extremely important, because April 30 represents a day of commemoration for many people in Canada. April 30 is a day for Vietnamese Canadians to come together to express our gratitude to Canadians for welcoming us with open arms.

I'm Catholic by background. I remember a nun who was very helpful in the Vietnamese Canadian community by the name of Sister Angeline. God bless her; she departed from us a few years ago.

In closing, I just want to say thank you for your attention. I look forward to your questions.

[Applause]

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much.

In the interests of fairness, we are now going to move over to hearing, from the Canada-Vietnam Trade Council, Julie Nguyen and Elizabeth McIninch.

You have up to eight minutes. Thank you.

[Dr. Dai Trang H., Julie) Nguyen (Co-Founder and Director, Toronto, Canada-Vietnam Trade Council]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members.

My name is Dai Trang Nguyen, and I'm from the Canada-Vietnam Trade Council. I'm also a representative of the Canada-Vietnam Association. I'm a college professor in international business and international development in Toronto.

I'm here today with two objectives. My first objective is to bring the Vietnamese Canadian community together, and my second is to restore fundamental freedoms for many community members.

The first objective depends on the second one. In this presentation I seek to make three recommendations to amend Bill S-219. The first is to change the date of commemoration to July 27; the second is to change the title of the bill to “appreciation of Canada by Vietnamese refugees”; and the third is to remove war-related content from the bill.

In this presentation I will discuss three main points: first, what's wrong with this bill; second, what the negative impacts of this bill on the community are; and third, what amendments are necessary to bring the community together.

What's wrong with this bill is that it appears to be about three positive things but in reality is about two negative things. The bill creates a good impression that it is about the commemoration of Vietnamese refugees, the community's appreciation of Canada for accepting them, and Canada's recognition of the community's contribution. In reality, what it is about is imposing another version of Vietnamese history and war history that favours the old Saigon regime and, based on that, criticizing the current government of Vietnam.

The three positive things bring the community together and all Canadians together; the two negative things divide the community. There are disagreements not just from those who oppose the bill, thinking that it has gone too far, but also from those who support it, thinking that it doesn't go far enough.

For the last 40 years, there has been only one accepted political voice in the Vietnamese Canadian community, and all other voices are suppressed. The first wave of Vietnamese, who arrived in 1975 and 1976, were a few thousand associated with the old Saigon regime. They have since imposed an anti-communist stance on community members who came later, including 60,000 refugees who arrived in 1979 and 1980, at least 100,000 economic migrants who came after 1972, and those who were born in Canada.

Community members are not supposed to have anything to do with “back home”, including research and education, trade and investment, music, cultural events, and so on. No one has ever come out to declare an alternative stance, mainly because of the necessity of making a living and taking care of family. The official flag of Vietnam has never been shown in community events, and the old Saigon flag is still being used.

Bill S-219 set off a movement in the community that had never happened before. In early February, 22 representatives courageously signed an open letter to oppose this bill, and you have a copy of it in both languages. This prompted hundreds of others to follow suit to sign it, and hundreds more started to speak out. The division between the anti-communist old Saigon regime and their followers and members who seek an alternative stance is now in the open.

I'm here to call for fundamental freedoms for many if not the majority of Vietnamese Canadians, specifically freedom of thought, belief, opinion, and expression according to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The focus of this bill should be about three positive things that help bring the community together. It should not be about the war or the current situation of Vietnam, because that will cause emotion and disagreement and further divide the community.

We therefore have three recommendations.

The first is to change the date. The date, April 30, is not appropriate, because this is the date that the Vietnam War ended.

This bill is not about the Vietnam War. This bill is about the Vietnamese refugees. Therefore, if you choose July 27, the date when the first flight of Vietnamese refugees landed in Canada, the bill will remind the community from all sides of what Canada has done for us and of the effort we need to make to contribute to Canadian society.

The second recommendation is to change the title. The title now, the “journey to freedom day act”, is not appropriate considering the need to restore fundamental freedoms for many members and the claims by many members that they did not come to Canada to search for freedom. We need a new title that is agreeable to all members, such as, for example, “appreciation of Canada by Vietnamese refugees”.

The third recommendation is to remove war-related content. In order to have consensus among all community members, we need to remove from the bill the content about the war, especially the words “black April”.

At the same time, Mr. Chair, I would like to mention that we need to rebuild the community. Many members lack access to English or French, young people are still struggling to find good jobs, and domestic violence is still not addressed properly in the community.

In conclusion, although the bill has had some divisive impacts so far in the community, I believe that it can be an opportunity to open a dialogue for all. It can be an opportunity to rebuild our community and to give everyone a voice in an inclusive process if it focuses on the three positive points above.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much.

We have had some testimony that we received in written copy, but we did not hear it from the witnesses, so in order for us to accept that, we do need a motion to that effect.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I will move that motion.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you.

Now we're going to move to questions.

For up to seven minutes, we have have Mr. Adler.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being here.

I have one question that I want to preface by saying, Senator Ngo, that it's an honour to co-sponsor this bill with you. As you know, I'm doing so in the House of Commons. Last week I presented a petition in the House that contained 2,619 signatures from people in the Vietnamese community who are supporting Bill S-219.

There's a question I want to address to you, Senator Ngo. Last week, on March 23 specifically, the deputy critic for Canadian Heritage suggested that we should consider adopting July 27 as the new commemoration date for the bill, on the grounds that this was when the first Vietnamese refugees were brought into Canada by the Canadian Forces on Operation Magnet II. Can you let us know what this proposed option means to you and the people of the Vietnamese Canadian community, who clearly commemorate their grief and thank Canada every year on April 30?

[Thanh Hai Ngo]

Thank you, Mr. Adler.

I wish to respectfully clarify that important point because it has been stated in the chamber, as you say, and was just recently introduced by Ms. Nguyen on the other side.

With regard to changing the date to July 27 as the date to recognize the refugees brought into Canada by the Canadian Forces in the summer 1979, I must strongly advise and warn you against this option. Changing the date of the journey to freedom day to July 27 would disregard the complete genesis of the Canadian resettlement experience with the Vietnamese refugees' exodus which began with the fall of Saigon on April 30, 1975.

I don't know how many of you know what the date of July 27, 1979 means. You should know that July 27, 1979 is the Vietnam Communist regime's remembrance day, a national public holiday in Vietnam honouring the heroism of the soldiers and the war heroes of the same regime for conducting re-education camps, perpetrating atrocity, and forcing refugees to flee their homes. Now, imagine how offensive this new proposed date would be to the Vietnamese Canadians who left everything behind as refugees to escape the same regime that they found intolerable. This proposal is an insult to the intelligence of the Vietnamese Canadians and the Canadian people. To me, this date is irrelevant.

The exodus, April 30, is the day that marked the beginning of the refugee crisis when their homeland ceased to exist. This day makes sure that everyone's experience as a refugee is recognized.

We have support from all Vietnamese communities across Canada. We have the Vietnamese community in Halifax, Moncton, Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Sherbrooke, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver. All Vietnamese community associations support the bill and support that day.

For those who oppose the bill—maybe those who came to Canada before 1975, are students in the Colombo plan, or for their personal interest of doing business with Vietnam—their personal interest compared to millions of Vietnamese who fled Vietnam on April 30, 1975 is unacceptable. To compare that day with the 300,000 Vietnamese refugees who left Vietnam—and Canada accepted them for that day—is not acceptable.

Also, to say July 27 and force Vietnamese Canadian refugees who were accepted by Canada to accept that day, honouring the remembrance day of the Vietnamese communist soldiers who killed them or tortured them or whatever, is insulting. Basically, that date is irrelevant to us and all of the Vietnamese communities across Canada who are supporting us. As the MP said, he tabled a petition of thousands and thousands who support the bill.

Basically the bill is not divisive of the Vietnamese community, but in fact this bill united the Vietnamese community who left Vietnam.

I'm talking about the refugees. I'm not talking about Vietnam. I'm not talking about the Vietnamese Communist regime. I'm not talking about the Vietnamese Communist government. The bill has nothing to do with the Vietnamese Communist regime or the government. This bill is concentrating on and focused on the exodus of the Vietnamese people. More than two million people left Vietnam on that day.

This bill is recognized by 300,000 Vietnamese who came to Canada. Canada accepted them with open arms. This bill also shows the vibrant contribution of the Vietnamese community in Canada.

Basically, that's the bill. The focus of the bill has nothing to do with trade. It has nothing to do with the Vietnamese government. It has nothing to do with the Vietnamese soldiers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Senator, we're going to have to move on now.

[Thanh Hai Ngo]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Ms. Sitsabaiesan, you have up to seven minutes.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here.

We heard from Senator Ngo that the date you proposed was April 30. I think Mr. Adler misquoted me from my speech in the House, which is nothing new. We heard Ms. Nguyen mention that April 30 is contentious for some people.

I am a child of war myself, so I understand your passion when you speak, because I lived in a war. I escaped a war zone, fled to Canada, live in Canada as a Canadian citizen, and have the privilege of being here, so I understand the journey and the importance of many of our collective journeys to freedom.

However, my question is with respect to the date. We've heard Senator Ngo's passionate comment about why July 27 is not a good date. We've heard Ms. Nguyen's passionate comments about why April 30 is not a good date. Clearly, there is some sort of friction.

I'm not a Vietnamese Canadian. In hearing from Vietnamese Canadians, I'm hearing passion from them in saying that both dates are not good. Is there a date that can be good? Is there anything that can actually be a unifier?

Senator Ngo, you said that you want this to be a unifying bill. I want that, too, because I'm a mediator by trade. I want people to be making consensus. What can we do to make it so the community is coming together? What date or possible dates are there so you can make a friendly amendment through Mr. Adler and make that change, so that everybody in the Vietnamese community can be 100% behind this to say thank you to Canada? Because that's what it's about, from what I've heard. What is that date?

That's for anybody.

Go ahead, Mr. Nguyen.

[James Lam Nguyen]

Thank you for the question.

With any legislation, there's going to be disagreement—

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I'm going to interrupt you for two seconds. I know we only have seven minutes, so no preamble, please. Just go.

[James Lam Nguyen]

Okay.

For any legislation, there's going to be disagreement, but what I can tell you is what my personal experience is. I attend events on a weekly basis in the biggest Vietnamese community in Canada. We have close to 100,000 people, which is one third of the Canadian community. This date is accepted by 99.9% of the Vietnamese community.

Ms. Julie Nguyen mentioned that this is a divider. I would love to have her come to any of our events and see our passion. For the last three years, I've organized the biggest lunar new year festival. For two of the three, Mr. Harper attended. The yellow heritage flag is part of our heritage, and it was all over the place.

When we talk about this bill, Madam Committee Member, there is overwhelming support. It's not a dispute between 50% and 50% of the community. This is 99.9%. I would happily invite Ms. Julie Nguyen to any of our events. I'll host her—

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

If I may, I'm going to ask Julie Nguyen to comment, because I see her looking like she wants to speak.

Go ahead.

[James Lam Nguyen]

I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[Dr. Dai Trang H. (Julie) Nguyen]

I just want to mention that when community members go to these events, these lunar new year events, they go there for the fun. They don't go there for the politics. When they go there, it doesn't mean that they agree to the old flag. It doesn't mean that they agree with that view of the old Saigon regime. It would be a huge mistake to think that all of them who go there accept this view.

Thank you.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I know that there are passion and politics involved, and I really want to make this work for everybody, because I'm thinking that many communities that have gone through a similar process may want this one day.

Is September 24 a good date for everybody? Is there any date that's not the remembrance day and not the end of the war, because war will always leave a raw wound. I left my country when I was a five-year-old child, and still, when I go back to Sri Lanka.... I went back once, 27 years later, and it was raw for me. War is always going to be raw. Can we not have the war date and not have the remembrance day date and have something else?

[Thanh Hai Ngo]

Thank you.

You want me to answer that one? Thank you very much, but April 30, 1975, is not the war date.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

It is the war.

[Thanh Hai Ngo]

It was the end of the war, so basically the war was over. We just think, “Okay, that's the day I left the country”.

Did you see the bill? We didn't talk about the war. We didn't talk about the atrocities, so basically—