Canadian Heritage Committee on May 25th, 2015

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Margaret Grenier, I have never heard dance described, or heard the importance of dance described, as you've described it, as not just communication but reconciliation. It's like the ultimate in communication: helping repair historic injustices, which is fascinating to me, and promoting cultural understanding, which is not an entirely new idea, but coming from you, it has a somewhat different meaning, I think.

How many people of other cultures have the opportunity to participate in first nations dance?

[Margaret Grenier]

I can speak in terms of my experience.

Our dance company in many ways goes back several decades. Back in the 1960s, when the work began with my parents and my grandmother, there was a really strong focus to revitalize practices within our communities. I have seen within the past decade or longer a lot more opportunity for collaboration. As I mentioned, our family began a collaboration even before that with Karen Jamieson Dance. When Karen first approached my father with regard to that collaboration, he had to explain the political context, he being a hereditary chief, and how to navigate that. At first he said no.

It's been quite a lot of work. Even today, it's still through developed personal relationships.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Can you comment on how dancing and the performances help develop the physical, mental, and spiritual health of the dancers and help them connect with the audience?

[Margaret Grenier]

For the most part, the work that's done by dancers on the west coast is still very much an intergenerational practice and one that has really strong ties to community. It's not only something where you're exposed to traditional knowledge from elders and knowledge keepers. It's something where, by being immersed in that practice, there's growth in the young artists. They are receiving something that is incredibly nourishing at a time when many people are coming from places where there's brokenness—broken ties to that ancestral knowledge, broken ties to community. Cultural identity is something that is strengthened by these opportunities.

Just by demonstrating that as a performer, and showing that to audience members who may not have any direct knowledge or contact with this kind of practice, we often receive feedback on how inspiring that is. I believe that's the source of where that feedback has come from.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Of course it is. Thank you.

Kathi Sundstrom, can you please explain, just functionally, what you said about not being able to challenge the salary rates for dancers and about how, speaking practically, that holds you up in getting male dancers? I think that's what you said.

[Kathi Sundstrom]

Oh, I think that from a young age, sadly, boys aren't encouraged to dance as much as girls. There's a supply and demand issue in that there are many more trained female dancers than male dancers. A male dancer with any talent has a greater opportunity for contracts. Often you will find that they may venture into the more commercial side of things, doing commercial work or video work that not in a non-profit environment.

We're not going to pay inequitably by the sexes. We're going to pay everyone the same, whether they're a man or a woman. So if we find a promising male dancer, they won't necessarily work for the wages that are prevalent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

All right, thank you very much.

We'll now go to Ms. Sitsabaiesan. You have the floor for seven minutes.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all of our witnesses.

I'd like to acknowledge the fact that today we have seen very diverse witnesses from diverse forms of dance. Thank you to all of you for being here.

Ms. Grenier, you've mentioned that you are, and I might say it wrong, a Gitxsan dancer?

[Margaret Grenier]

Yes, that's correct.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

You said it's an educational tool and that you're sharing it with students and schools at all levels—elementary, middle, intermediate, secondary, and post-secondary—in doing your workshops.

I've been asking all of our witnesses about the impact we can have in integrating the various forms of dance into our educational curriculum, just as sports has been integrated. So my question for you, since you're already doing this, is how has it affected the children or the youth in the schools? Has it broadened their interest in aboriginal dance education? Has it also broadened non-aboriginals' interest in aboriginal dance education?

[Margaret Grenier]

Yes, I think there are two answers to that question. Fundamentally, what I see when we do our workshops, especially with young people, is that there's a very open response. They respond with whatever feelings they've evoked in the moment. There are no preconceived ideas as to what they're going to see. We always say that it's a very “open-hearted” relationship that is built between the dancers and the young people.

Therefore, in terms of the impact, I know that there are very positive experiences through both the performance and workshops. The young people are going to carry that forward with them. They are going to have positive perspectives that are going to be influential in their relationships with aboriginal people. I think that's what's so beautiful about working within schools and in a context where you're bringing together aboriginal and non-aboriginal communities.

Further I think because dance integrates language, movement, story, and traditional teachings, it's something where you're able to expose young people to more than just an art from. They really are learning cultural knowledge, as well as appreciating the distinctiveness and diversity of the first nations people.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

I'll segue from there. Ms. Pada, it's great to have you here and to have bharatanatyam and South Asian dance as part of the Canadian landscape, as you've mentioned.

For me, it was through dance that I learned and figured out my cultural identity, that blend between my roots of where I come from and my Canadian identity, and what that means. I know you're doing that for many of our young people in the western GTA.

You and Ms. Sundstrom spoke of the difficulties you are experiencing with the temporary foreign worker program. Ms. Pada you also mentioned specifically the international mobility program and how it helped you bring five dancers for your last production, and the ripple effect of that.

I'm going to focus on the ripple effect piece, because I think you were very clear about the international mobility program. Is the government currently doing enough to help establish international partnerships so that you, as a dance school and then as a dance company, take the production you are producing here locally and are able to tour or to take it to the global market?

[Lata Pada]

Thank you, Rathika.

That's an important question. Support right now for touring internationally comes directly from the Canada Council's international touring program, and as I said earlier, it's just not well-subscribed. The program just doesn't have the budget to respond to the number of requests and applications they receive.

It's very interesting when you tour abroad. In the same way that people want to know about Canadian cuisine, they want to know what Canadian culture is. That's a very important part of what we need to express as a nation, namely, that we are a very diverse nation and that our identity comes from first nations first and foremost—their cultural identity—but as much as that, from all the other diverse cultural communities that also live and work across Canada.

I do believe there is a ripple effect from the Canadian commissions in the various countries also providing support to Canadian artists touring abroad. We seek their support, but their budgets are also very limited when it comes to supporting the performance of a Canadian artist in the city where they're located or across the country. So in my case I would speak about the Canadian High Commission in India. They've always been very supportive in marketing our programs, but they just have no other way of supporting artists who come to travel and perform across India. I give that as an example only.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Ms. Sundstrom, did you want to add your comments? I have 30 seconds apparently.

[Kathi Sundstrom]

We recently did a project with a guest company from Brazil. We brought in five dancers and shared an evening of work. We did half the work; they did half the work, and then we did a collaboration. We would love this to be a much larger project and to tour to Brazil, but there isn't the support now that we can count on to make that happen. It was interesting. The piece that the audience members in Calgary liked the most was when the two companies worked together. We used the best of each and created something that was very exciting, and we'd love to be able to expand that and take it to Brazil, but currently there is not enough funding for that type of project.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

What is the type of support that you're actually looking for, that you think would help?

[Kathi Sundstrom]

Well, it would be touring support and just various programs that we can access for funding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dion, you have seven minutes.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the three of you, mesdames, for being with us.

You address the issue of the support that you receive from the arts councils, the Canada Council. Is it only a matter of money, that you want more money, or is it the way the programs are designed that must be improved?

The three of you may answer, if one of you will volunteer to start.

Madame Pada, you were the first one to mention the issue of the arts council. Do you want to start, Madame Pada?

[Lata Pada]

Thank you.

Yes, of course, it is a question of being able to diversify your support. There used to be trade groups and various other programs at Canadian Heritage that at one point supported international touring. That was withdrawn quite a few years ago, and now international touring is funnelled and supported directly through the Canada Council. So, for sure, their budget for international and national touring has to be increased to be able to facilitate taking Canadian art abroad. And very little of Canadian art—“art” meaning the performing arts, visual arts—is seen across the world. We have a surfeit of other forms, but we never see much from Canada. So definitely my recommendation is that it should go directly to the Canada Council to enable the council to support such artists.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Madame Grenier, did you want to intervene on the Canada Council issue?

[Margaret Grenier]

Yes, I believe the continued development of the program is essential to be able to best serve artists, especially because of their diversity. As well, the experience of the Dancers of Damelahamid is certainly that our success has been because of the program officers we have worked with—especially with the Canada Council for the Arts, which really listened to us as individuals, looking at our needs and our projects and making it possible for our company to grow in the manner it has.

However, throughout all of this process, there is an ongoing need to have to look at program criteria and do your best to sit within those boundaries. I think that always places limitations on artistic practices, especially when your artistic practices are coming from a place that is so distinctly unique and often not completely in line with the way the program criteria are set out now. I think a continual effort to move that forward is just as necessary as the funding itself.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you very much.

Madam Sundstrom, what are your comments on the same topic?

[Kathi Sundstrom]

I'm a big believer in operating funding. We need operating funding to allow us to do what we do. I went to a presentation last week, and I know that Canada Council is streamlining all its grants. As a small organization—even the $2 million organization, which you may think is big, is small—we have limited administrative staff. So, we have to apply for layered grant on grant on grant. We need that base of operating funding so that we can make wise decisions.

I would very much support an increase to Canada Council for operating funding. It would be wonderful if the federal government could do that and also encourage the province and cities to follow suit, by your example.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Good.

Madam Sundstrom, you were the one, if I'm not wrong, who mentioned the issue of the preparations for the 150th anniversary of Confederation. Can I ask if you received a clear sense of what you need to do to be part of these celebrations? Do you need to prepare? Do you have the sense that government, or the minister, gave to the arts community of Canada a direction about how you may be involved?