Canadian Heritage Committee on Sept. 18th, 2018

[Bryan Adams]

Well, only a small portion of my work is actually under this thing. I own most of my work and most of my tapes. I own most of my masters and everything. There's only a small contingent of my work that is affected.

Let's say you're an artist who writes two things in your life, or writes the one book, and it does come back to you. At that point, you would be able to decide if you want to stay with that publisher. Has he done the right thing for you? Do you want to remarket it in a different way? Do you want to bundle it with some new work?

Suddenly, it becomes yours. Do you want to sell it back to the publisher again? You now have an opportunity to sell your music not for the $1 that you signed for, but for $1,000, and you can have something else from your work that you did when you were young. Those are the things that happen.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

That is a huge disadvantage, I feel, because it's not just about the dollar amount; it's also about your limitations on your own creativity, your own creation, because we all evolve later on in life, and you could add so much more. I think this is a very distinct disadvantage that you cannot give even more to the work and hone it as you would have liked to. It is regrettable to wait till after the death of somebody rather than after the assignment of those rights.

[Bryan Adams]

Right.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

I would also like to ask you how the royalties would be affected. Is there any major effect on those as well?

[Bryan Adams]

Well, the way it would work is that if you suddenly got your copyright back, you would own 100% of whatever percentage of the song or book that you wrote. Until that point, it's divided among the members who the contract would have been with in the beginning.

You would go from one small portion to the whole portion. Instead of half the pie, you would get all of it. Again, you'd have the opportunity at that point to decide. You can decide that they've done a great job for you, but what if you're signed to somebody in a contract who you don't want to work with, and what if they don't want to work with you? There's no opportunity in this law as it stands right now for you to say, “You know what? In one year's time this is coming back, so let's be buddies and let's move forward, or I'm off.” At this point, they just go, “Gotcha.” It's not fair.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

No. It stifles your creativity.

[Bryan Adams]

Yes, and that can have a huge effect on people. I don't even want to start naming names of people who have had their copyright whisked from underneath their feet by contracts that they've signed as youngsters. I'm not going to say that.... It happens in every walk of life, not just in music. We've all had to make deals in our lives that perhaps we wish we could have done better. To be tied to something for such a long period of time without any negotiation whatsoever.... I think we can do better.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

I think that's a good place to leave it. That will bring us to the end of this hour.

I appreciate that you stuck around for a bit. I'm sorry we started late.

[Bryan Adams]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

It's certainly been fun to hear everybody's concert memories along the way, so thank you very much.

[Bryan Adams]

I have a few concert memories I wanted to—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Bryan Adams]

No, I'm just kidding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

I'd be happy to hear them later, too, but we're going to suspend briefly while we wait for our next group of witnesses.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We will start up again.

In our second hour today, we are reviewing Bill C-391, an act respecting a national strategy for the repatriation of aboriginal cultural property.

We have with us MP Bill Casey, who brought forward this bill; Heather Stevens, from the Millbrook Cultural and Heritage Centre; and Joel Henderson. I do not have him on my list, but he is with Mr. Casey.

[Bill Casey, Cumberland—Colchester, Lib.]

Joel Henderson is my executive assistant. He was instrumental in drafting the bill, to put it mildly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Perfect.

It's good to have all three of you here.

Mr. Casey, are we starting with you?

[Bill Casey]

Yes. Thanks very much.

I think I'll start the presentation by telling you a little story about how this all unfolded and how I got involved.

In 2017 I visited the Millbrook Cultural and Heritage Centre. Millbrook First Nation is a small first nation in my riding, but very progressive. They have a wonderful cultural and heritage centre, and Heather Stevens is the manager and curator. They have a lot of artifacts on display. She was explaining the artifacts to me, and she showed me this—I've passed the picture around for everybody to see—in its own glass display case.

I was admiring it, and Heather told me that it wasn't the real one, but a replica. The real one was in Australia. She told me they'd been trying to get it back since the 1990s. Because of different barriers, they hadn't been able to repatriate it.

I thought that was not right, so when I came back, Joel and I checked to see if there was any legislation or any government program or policy that would help a small first nation like Millbrook reacquire their artifacts. We knew where they were—they were legally in Australia and everything—but just in general, we wanted to find out if there was any way the government could help. There was no way.

We decided to draft this private member's bill, mostly just to give a voice to indigenous peoples and to know that there's a strategy on behalf of the government to help them get their artifacts back. We started it out that way, with the very small goal of just adding a voice—that's the way I like to put it—to indigenous peoples' voices.

The amazing thing was that when I tabled the motion at first reading, I spoke for two minutes and 37 seconds. I talked about the robe and I talked about it being in Australia, just to introduce the bill. Three weeks later, the Australian embassy called and asked if the ambassador could come and see me. I told them, “Of course”. I didn't connect it. I just thought she was doing her job and making good connections. She came in, she sat down, and we talked for a little while. All of a sudden, she told me that she'd been in touch with the Melbourne Museum, where the robe is, and they were prepared to begin negotiations to repatriate that robe. I was floored. I couldn't believe it. Two minutes and 37 seconds in the House was better than 30 years of trying on behalf of indigenous people.

It was a profound moment for me when she said that. I couldn't believe it. She gave me the name of the people in Melbourne to contact. She was very outgoing. When I asked her why she had done this, she told me that in Australia they have a thriving indigenous community. They have a rich heritage and rich culture, and they want their artifacts back. How could they ask Canada or other countries to please return artifacts if they wouldn't return theirs? As a result, that process is under way.

The magic to me is this. We have here a young aboriginal woman from Nova Scotia, from Millbrook band, and she is negotiating with a young aboriginal woman in Australia. It's not Australia to Canada or Canada to Australia: it's first nation to first nation, 15,000 kilometres apart. To me that's very meaningful. I think it's an indication of where we're going as a country and as a globe with respect to indigenous relations and respect.

We've already had an impact with Bill C-391, even though it hasn't passed. We don't have this robe back, but we're well on the way to getting it back. I'm optimistic that we are going to get it back, and the other artifacts with it.

I've passed around this article. It's not in either official language. It's in Chinese. This private member's bill was picked up in China. I know what it's about because it has my picture in it.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Bill Casey]

They also spelled my name right, which is the important thing.

That's the impact it's had. We had calls from Germany. We had calls from Britain, the U.S., and all over asking about the details of the bill. We had a call from the Secretary General of the Commonwealth Association of Museums, which represents 52 countries with thousands of museums. They suggested that they may use this bill as a template for other countries that are trying to get their artifacts back—especially African countries, which have seen many of their artifacts taken all over the world.

Therrefore, we've already had an impact. We had one family call and tell us that they have indigenous artifacts and they don't know what to do with them. This bill would provide a place for them to go. The family told us that they want the artifacts to go back to the proper people, to go back to the people they came from. They don't know what to do.

This bill will help to provide that doorway that people can go to if they do have artifacts to return.

Yesterday I received an email from Chief Dean Nelson, who says:

...I am the political chief of the Lil'wat people

That's in Mount Currie in British Columbia.

He says:

I thank you for your efforts in the introduction of this Bill C-391. I am currently pursuing the very same action of repatriation. If there's anything we can do to [help] strengthen these efforts, please [let us know].

We've heard from indigenous peoples all across the country. When we started, we consulted with just our local indigenous community, but since then we've consulted with dozens of museums and indigenous communities to make sure that we did this right.

When we first started, we didn't realize what a big thing this might end up being. It was just to add a voice. That was our goal, just to add a voice, but it seems that countries around the world are really anxious to have their artifacts repatriated.

In a coincidence, I went to the Indigenous Tourism Association meeting last spring, and the number one issue to them was repatriation of artifacts for economic purposes—not for heritage and culture so much, but for economic purposes, because people who want to come to first nations are really interested in the history and the heritage and they want to see the artifacts. They want to see the history. The young people want to see how things were made. They want to see the talent. They want to see the processes that were in place in the 1500s, 1600s and 1700s. That's what this artifacts issue is really about.

In the U.S., they did it a little differently. They developed the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which requires confiscation of artifacts. Our bill does not require confiscation. It would mean that if artifacts are available or have been obtained through nefarious approaches, the Government of Canada has a structure and a policy to help first nations bring them back.

Millbrook First Nation has about 1,500 to 2,000 people; it depends on how you count them. They're incredibly innovative and imaginative and they do a wonderful job, but still, they're 1,500 to 2,000 people and they do not have the resources to take on something like this repatriation of the robe. However, if this bill passes—I hope you'll help us with it—they will have some place to go to in order to ask for advice on storage, repatriation, restoration and safekeeping.

I'm sure you all heard about the museum in Brazil that burned to the ground a week or so ago. A whole lot of Canadian aboriginal artifacts were lost in that fire, priceless artifacts that are gone forever and ever because they weren't stored properly. Maybe we can save some future losses if we can have this bill passed and we can get those artifacts back in our own hands and properly stored.

It's been a thrill to be involved with this issue. It's been a thrill to talk to aboriginal peoples all across the country and all around the world about this. It's been very gratifying to me. What started out to be a small thing to just add a voice has turned out to be something really meaningful, and I appreciate your attention to it.

I have to hand it to Heather Stevens. She's done a great job on this.

Heather, thanks very much.

Joel, too, you did a great job.

With that, I'm going to finish my remarks. I welcome your interventions and questions and everything else.

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you.

Ms. Stevens, do you have a presentation?

[Heather Stevens, Operations Supervisor, Millbrook Cultural and Heritage Centre]

I do.

Hello and good afternoon, Madam Chair and committee members.

My name is Heather Stevens. I'm a Mi'kmaq woman from Millbrook First Nation in Nova Scotia, as Bill said. I am here before you this afternoon to address Bill C-391. In doing so, I'm going to tell you a bit about me and the story behind the bill.

I am the operations supervisor at the Millbrook Cultural and Heritage Centre, which is located in Millbrook First Nation. Within the centre, we have artifacts from our Mi'kmaq people that date back 7,500 years. Think about that. It's a long time ago.

I'm going to go off my notes just a bit. We have an archeological dig taking place just outside of our location at Mi'kmawey Debert. In Mi'kmawey Debert, artifacts dating back 13,600 years for our people were uncovered. Mind you, we don't have them in our centre yet either. We're hoping to get those as well.

We are fortunate and honoured to have in our centre these artifacts from 7,500 years ago.

I am here today to bring light to our struggle in trying to have a priceless piece of our Mi'kmaq cultural history returned to its mother country. The Mi'kmaq regalia that we are now trying to acquire is being held at the Melbourne Museum in Australia. This regalia dates back to about the 1840s. We have a picture of it in our museum, as Bill said, but the true piece is in the Melbourne Museum, tucked away somewhere.

When I first started at the Glooscap Heritage Centre and Mi'kmaq Museum, which is now the Millbrook Cultural and Heritage Centre, I was a programs assistant. At that time, the picture of this regalia was in the same display case, and I often wondered why there was just a picture. Why didn't we have this historical regalia displayed here for our people from all over Mi'kma'ki, which in our language is “the land of the Mi'kmaq”, to see, touch and experience that part of our history at first hand?

The answer I received from those in previous endeavours of trying to acquire the regalia in partnership with the Confederacy of Mainland Mi'kmaq and the GHC was that “We have tried, but there's too much red tape and it's just not worth the fight anymore.” That frustrated me so much, but in the position I held, my hands were tied.

When I was eventually put in my current position, I made it a point to have not only me but the entire staff speak to all visitors to our centre about the regalia. In doing so, we were hoping that eventually someone would listen and help us. That day came at the end of last year when MP Bill Casey came to the centre on a different matter. I had been chosen to give him a tour of the museum. When we reached that particular display case, I spoke to him about the value of the piece and the struggles that I had gone through to no avail. At that point, I saw a light in MP Bill Casey's eyes that I had never seen before. That light was hope.

From that point on, MP Bill Casey has worked with me on moving forward with regard to acquiring this priceless historical Mi'kmaq regalia and having it returned to its rightful place. Over a short period of time, I made a connection with another first nations woman of the Worimi Nation, who is employed at the Melbourne Museum, and spoke with her about the regalia. She could relate to the meaning and the desire to get it back home where it belongs. She's so very excited to be a part of having this artifact returned to its rightful place.

As of right now, the movement is slow, but I am very optimistic that if this bill passes, we are going to open a door that is going to let other first nation communities get back the material history that is rightfully theirs, and they will be able to share that history with others. Sharing this history among the Mi'kmaq people and others could uncover direct descendants of that regalia and other historical properties.

The feeling is about recognition of wrongdoing and moving forward with a part of reconciliation for first nations. I, as well as many other first nation people, feel that this would be a step in the right direction, a step to allow us to reconnect with our past, which was taken from us so long ago.

That's it. Thank you very much for your time, Madam Chair and committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you very much for those presentations.

We're now going to questions and answers.

We will begin with MP Randy Boissonnault, please.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, MP Casey. You remind us of the important connections and possibilities that come from just being out and about in our own communities. That's fundamental to being an MP, and so is reconciliation to our government. As a non-status adopted Cree person and member of the indigenous caucus of our government, I fully support your initiative.

I think you've been very clever in the drafting of the bill. Can you just share with us collectively why you have a national action plan, and then comment on any money from Treasury that may or may not come as a result of this bill? I'll also have follow-up questions.

[Bill Casey]

The experience I had was that Millbrook had no place to turn. I talked to museums, and they talk about repatriation, but from talking to indigenous communities, I feel they don't provide the help they need. The whole goal is to add a voice to small indigenous communities like Millbrook so that they're not all by themselves on this endeavour.

As far as money goes, that's part of the strategy. This regalia, I understand, had been given a price of $500,000 to $600,000. That was the estimated value. We're talking about zero now; because of Bill C-391, we're talking about them returning it for zero. That's how this national strategy that I'm calling for could help. That was one of the barriers they ran into at the beginning. By adding our voice...and I just say to all members, it was two minutes and 37 seconds in the House of Commons. That's meaningful. I wouldn't rule out money being made available, but it's not necessary. Mostly I'm talking about assistance in communication and transportation, things like that. Safekeeping is really important. That's what it's about.

Here's a book written by Ruth Phillips. We met with Ruth Phillips. This is almost the bible of indigenous artifacts. You have the whole story about the travels of this robe in here, in the chapter called The Global Travels of a Mi’kmaq Coat. The whole story's in here. It's an amazing book. It's just amazing, the research she did. Huyghue, the guy who bought the regalia in 1843, is quoted in this book:

...Huyghue was convinced of the inevitable and tragic fate that awaited Aboriginal cultural traditions and ways of life: “Alas! poor remnants of a once mighty nation - ye are like the few remaining leaves on a tree from whence their companions have withered....”

That's why the person who bought this robe in 1843 wanted to save it. He wanted it saved. He treasured the Mi’kmaq traditions and culture. It's all in this book. It's just an amazing book. She spent five years writing it.