Evidence of meeting #118 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was back.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Then for you it would be symbolic for all first nations people throughout the world that an artifact that belonged to the originating country is coming back home.
12:55 p.m.
Operations Supervisor, Millbrook Cultural and Heritage Centre
Absolutely, and it just gives all other first nations people the hope that maybe what they attempt will happen. We set the groundwork here. We have opened the door for them, and to have that would be wonderful.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Mr. Casey, for you personally, what would this mean?
12:55 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
12:55 p.m.
Cumberland—Colchester, Lib.
I was just sitting here thinking I'm going to celebrate the 30th anniversary of my first election in two months.
12:55 p.m.
Cumberland—Colchester, Lib.
Now, mind you, I've been thrown in, thrown out, and recycled. I've changed parties a few times, run as an independent, and I've been involved with some wonderful things. I had a private member's bill on brain tumour registries; it was really meaningful, but this is turning out to be more meaningful to me.
If you want to know what it means to me, it means a great deal. I cherish our history, but I especially cherish the indigenous history. We have so much of it where I live, and we're very fortunate to have it.
Heather talked about it. I can't say the Mi'kmaq term, but it's called Debert in English. They have discovered the oldest community in Canada. It's thirteen and a half thousand years old. It's very close to Millbrook. I'm hoping that we can make some progress on that before I am not here anymore.
This is very meaningful, and I didn't even realize how meaningful it was until we started to get calls from people—calls from indigenous people, calls from museums, calls from all over the world. A journalist in Germany called and interviewed me on it. That has never happened to me before, and I doubt that many private members' bills get written up in China in Chinese. It has turned out to be a very profound thing and very meaningful to me. I'm very grateful for the chance to have this bill and have you listen to it, and hopefully it will pass.
1 p.m.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
From what you've said, it will have an impact on the entire world as well. From your testimony, this is what I'm gathering. This is something incredible for Canadians and for indigenous communities across the world.
This is for Ms. Stevens or Mr. Casey. What would you do to encourage other countries or communities to give back the items and ask that those that belong to the indigenous community be given back?
1 p.m.
Operations Supervisor, Millbrook Cultural and Heritage Centre
I think I would just relate. Everybody has a history. Everybody has something that they connect with, and it would just be the connection, the relation that I would have with them, the understanding. Everybody has compassion. Everybody in some way or another understands that they need—or not that they need, but that it's good to have—their history and to have it available for other people to learn and to grow from. That's basically what I would do.
1 p.m.
Cumberland—Colchester, Lib.
I just want to answer that question if I may. I have a vision of Genevieve, the aboriginal woman in Australia, coming to Millbrook and presenting the regalia to Heather. That picture will go around the world. That is indigenous person to indigenous person—indigenous woman to indigenous woman, even. If we do get approval to move it and repatriate it, I'm going to do everything I can to see that happen. I would love Genevieve to bring the regalia here, and I'm sure it would go around the world.
1 p.m.
Conservative
David Yurdiga Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, MP Casey. It's a great bill. I'm glad to see it coming forward and glad that I get to be part of it and to discuss its implementation eventually once it passes in the House. I just need some clarification.
Obviously many first nations would love to display it within their communities. One concern is always coming forward: we don't have the expertise to maintain these items. We don't have the infrastructure or the financial ability to install some of these special humidity or temperature controls or whatever it may be. I'm not an expert on that side, but I'm sure there are many who can give a ballpark figure eventually. They would want help financially from the government because they don't have the means.
It's very important to have these artifacts go back to the communities. They're very excited and happy about the bill. Do you see in the strategy that there is money attached to it, whether for training, infrastructure costs, or even operational costs? To have these things, special care is needed. Can you elaborate a little bit so I have a better understanding of where you want this bill to go, and how it's going to impact our communities?
1 p.m.
Cumberland—Colchester, Lib.
I think you can tell that I would like it to go a long way. This calls for that strategy. I'm calling for the strategy you're calling for, and that includes all of those things you listed and the resources that would be necessary. We're talking about a lot of different things.
We just agreed with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. We're going to adopt that. In there it says we have to take special measures to help the economies of first nations. This is a special measure. If we can help them establish what you're talking about—facilities with artifacts on display—that's going to be a huge draw.
Everybody is interested in indigenous history, it seems. I am for sure, and I know most people are, but they don't have the resources. Everything we're doing, everything we're saying we're going to do, points to this. It points in this direction. We've adopted it. We've agreed to take special measures.
The number one issue for the Indigenous Tourism Association was artifacts. I had no idea that would be it, but I had just tabled my Bill C-391. I went to this meeting in Centre Block, and that was the number one issue. They didn't know about my bill, but their number one issue was restoring their artifacts so that they could put them on display and attract tourists. This will help pay for it. It could be a viable business plan. They have these artifacts on this display and it's going to cost this much money. It might be a positive economic business plan you could put forward and finance in that way.
The strategy is to help first nations like Millbrook figure that out. I'm not calling for a lot of money to be spent on it, but I'm calling for a strategy to help first nations. For sure, there will be cases where it's just not viable. If that robe was $500,000 or $600,000 10 or 15 years ago, it would probably be much more today. There's no way we could support that, but by adding a voice, which the House of Commons has done, maybe we're going to get it back for zero dollars.
Fortunately, Millbrook does have a properly built facility that has environmental controls and fire protection and everything else, but you're right that a lot of them don't. Maybe it's part of the strategy to help work on that. If we recognize the artifacts as a tremendous resource and a tremendous asset—and they are—then maybe these resources will be available to develop them. How's that for an answer?
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
I think the principle you put forward is to be accepted and understood in light of our Canadian culture, hopefully worldwide. As I read through the way you've laid it out, it's about providing a forum for that information to come together and result in negotiations to deal with it. There's nothing forcing any type of change within it.
Considering the legislation you've submitted and the conversations you've had to date, is there anything in the legislation that you think you might have changed or might be different, or are you quite satisfied that it's consistent with the principles and values you put forward?
1:05 p.m.
Cumberland—Colchester, Lib.
The only push-back we've had on it is whether it could be interpreted as confiscation. It was never meant to be confiscation. That's the only feedback we've had on it. They weren't opposed to it, but they had questions on it. If that has to be clarified, we should do it. There never was an attempt to have anybody's artifacts confiscated if they obtained them legally.
This robe, for example, was obtained 100% legally. The whole story is in this book. The whole chapter on that robe is in this book. It tells exactly where it came from and how it got to where it is. There was never any question about the legality of the ownership of the robe, but now it's available, maybe. Millbrook can't do this by themselves, so if we have a national strategy, it will add value to our country if we can help bring it back.
In the U.S. they have legislation that does allow governments to confiscate, but in Canada we don't have that, and I'm not calling for it.
That was the only thing.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Certainly in the information we have, you talk about looking for resolution, not confiscation of anything. I'm not sure where a reader would get that other than by an assumption they might make.
1:05 p.m.
Cumberland—Colchester, Lib.
We talked to a lot of museum associations, and I mean dozens. We talked to the main one, the Canadian Museum Association, and they feel they could do this too, but when I talk to indigenous people, they feel that museums are competitors for the artifacts. It's two completely different perspectives.
The museums feel they can help, and I believe they're sincere, but when I talk to indigenous people, they say the museums are competitors for the artifacts. This is focused on indigenous peoples and returning the artifacts to them.
I don't know.... Where is Mount Currie in British Columbia?
