Evidence of meeting #124 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A video is available from Parliament.
Senior Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, BCE Inc.
If we didn't comply with the notice and notice regime, yes, we'd be subject to penalties, but we comply. Like Rogers, we send out millions of notices every year. We comply with the regime.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin
That question brings you to the end of your questions.
We will now go to MP David Yurdiga, please.
David Yurdiga Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I thank the witnesses for coming today and talking business, and this is all about business.
When I was growing up, we didn't have a lot of choice. We were limited to what was available at the stores and on the radio and TV. However, that has changed. I don't think industry has caught up yet to the reality that we can get programming from all around the world. I think it's more of a competition issue. We have more choices. We have the ability to choose what we want to see and when we want to see it. There's the time element and everything else. Things are changing rapidly.
My question is to Mr. Sparrow. Is competition the real factor as to why artists are making less? Is it because there's so much other material out there? Do you have an opinion on that? Can you just give your point of view on that aspect?
National President and Performer, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists (ACTRA)
It's interesting that right now in the world there are apparently 500 English language TV series being recorded. None of us has the time to watch all of that programming. There is a lot of work for performers.
The question, as I'm repeating today, is simply how the long use of that work will be protected. Will you simply be paid for the day's work, or will you actually be paid for the ongoing use?
You mentioned what we grew up with, and we're probably similar ages. We had three stations to choose from. You may remember Gilligan's Island. Bob Denver worked at a time when there were no contract residuals or royalties. That's why we grew up on that program. It could play all through the seventies with no payments to the actors whatsoever. Bob Denver actually ended up retiring in less than splendid conditions, because although he was world famous, there were no monies for him. We've been able through ACTRA to negotiate with our producer partners to have some of those residuals and royalties.
However, at the same time, as I had mentioned, many of our productions in Canada are now seen in hundreds of countries around the world. The question is simply, are we receiving competition statutory rights through that?
Yes, competition has increased. Somebody said just a little while ago that they felt there was less money in the system. Actually, because of all the streaming services competition and the need for content, in many ways there's more money in the system, but it's not trickling down to our performers.
Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Thank you.
I'll make a little side comment. At the end of the day, it's the consumers who decide what they want to watch. Unfortunately, there's the piracy end of things. That's a really big challenge, and I assume that the dollar value is significant. That's being led through the networks.
However, the networks are doing fine. Myself, I consume a lot of data, and my children, and everything else. We pay our data fee, which sometimes I think is high, but I'm willing to pay it because I want to watch what I want to watch.
There are some challenges there too with infrastructure. I understand there's a lot of investment on the telecommunications side. A lot of the time the urban centres subsidize the rural areas, because they don't have enough customer base. I understand the business side of that.
How can we deal with the piracy? They're very ahead on the technological side. If you put up roadblocks, they'll go around them. Are we going to win the war against piracy, or are we going to have to learn how to live with it?
Can I get a comment from the networks?
Senior Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, BCE Inc.
I'll start.
Certainly we can win the war against piracy, if we're provided with the right tools to win that war.
As I said earlier, there are over 40 countries around the world that have recognized and are confronting the same piracy problem we're confronting. The solution that they have adopted, which has had a 75% to 90% success rate, is having Internet service providers block access to that pirated content so it's no longer available to the consumer who wants to consume pirated content. It can be done expeditiously, efficiently, and at a much lower cost than having to go to court every time you find a pirate site.
If you look at the proliferation of pirate sites available on the Internet, under the current legal regime a producer or creator or broadcaster would have to go to court each and every time it wanted to get an order from a court to block one single source of piracy. Complicating that situation is that most of the pirate sites are located offshore. They operate online, anonymously. It's hard to find the defendant and hard to enforce when you finally get an order, and then they pop up somewhere else. It becomes an endless game of Whac-A-Mole, trying to stem the tide of piracy.
The answer, we think, is having Internet service providers like Bell and Rogers block those sites as they come in.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin
On that Whac-A-Mole note, we will be moving over to MP Randy Boissonnault for the final five minutes.
Randy Boissonnault Edmonton Centre, Lib.
That probably means that I have a big stick.
I want to go to ACTRA for a minute, and then maybe we'll split the time.
You have Bell and Rogers here. What can they do to increase the share of the pie to get more money to artists and actors?
National President and Performer, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists (ACTRA)
I think that first off—and I'm not sure it's the mandate of this committee, but I'll just say it—
National President and Performer, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists (ACTRA)
ISP providers paying into the CMF and other funding models in order to support Canadian content would be huge in terms of creating more content and hiring more performers.
We count them, I would say, as great partners in our industry. We've had long-term contracts with them. This is basically recognizing that when they talk about their Canadian content investments, it's all of their content investments, from news magazines to sports to other. They are doing some great programming right now as well, but more drama and Canadian storytelling is always welcome.
Edmonton Centre, Lib.
Thank you. It's a technical question, but on the issue of neighbouring rights to individuals and entities, would you advocate for a similar set of neighbouring rights for those who make cinematographic recordings, and thus for the film and television industry also, so that these can be captured and those artists can get fair compensation for their work as well?
National President and Performer, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists (ACTRA)
Do you want to address that?
Director, Performers' Rights Society and Recording Artists' Collecting Society, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists (ACTRA)
We currently have very strong collective bargaining rights, and we negotiate for those rights. If you're talking about a regime whereby we maintain those rights but also enjoy a form of neighbouring rights, I think that is something we would be very willing to discuss and explore.
Edmonton Centre, Lib.
It's been brought up by other proponents. I have three minutes left, so I'm going keep moving.
Director, Performers' Rights Society and Recording Artists' Collecting Society, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists (ACTRA)
Yes.
Edmonton Centre, Lib.
This is to both BCE Inc. and Rogers. I appreciate your being here. Your weight in the ecosystem is significant. We have to state that.
Your submissions to this committee ring hollow and “tin ear”. They're technical and they're overweighted to INDU. This should have been a different submission. This is the place in which we're advocating for artists. You said so in your submissions, and yet what we see is “go after the ISPs; shut down the piracy”.
We get that; we know that. What are you going to do to make the piece of pie that goes to artists bigger? Even if we get the $500 million back, it's the same size of pie; there's nothing more that's coming from your shareholders to go into the pockets of artists. Where, then, is the creativity from industry to put more money in the pockets of artists? You won't have things to sell from Canada if we don't support the artists, and consumers don't see that coming.
It's like climate change. One day there are six tornadoes in this city and there are 22 centimetres of snow in September in Edmonton. It's too late. What, then, are you going to do before we get to the point of 1.5° warmer and the planet is overheating, within the ecosystem of content, to get more money to artists?
You have a minute each: Pam, and then Robert.
Vice-President, Regulatory Cable, Legal and Regulatory Affairs, Rogers Communications Inc.
It's a fair point, except I think that you can't discount the $500 million that's leaking out of the system.
Vice-President, Regulatory Cable, Legal and Regulatory Affairs, Rogers Communications Inc.
But it's on that money that the monies are not being then allocated to support systems such as the CMF, CPE, and copyright payments. That's the problem: the problem is the leakage. We don't think there need be more mechanisms, such as an ISP tax. If you need higher royalties, go to the copyright board and get those royalties revised.
Having an ISP tax is not the answer. That is going to simply raise the cost of Internet to Canadians, which is of deep concern already to a number of people in this government. Really, we want to make it clear that leakage is the problem. The $500 million is significant, and that's why our priority is to try to put mechanisms in place to stem the flow of streaming piracy.
Edmonton Centre, Lib.
You suggested that the recording industry cut what they're getting from artists in half so that artists can get more, going from 50% to 25% so that the artist can get 75%. Would you look at carving out some of what you get from the Canada Music Fund to put into a transitional fund for artists so that they could get more money?
You and BCE get the lion's share of Canada Music Fund payments. If we're going to get rid of the $1.5-million royalty regime, that would be one part of it, but you could actually take less money from the Government of Canada and put the rest into a fund for artists.
Are you prepared to go there?
Vice-President, Regulatory Cable, Legal and Regulatory Affairs, Rogers Communications Inc.
We don't want to impact the local commitments that we have on our radio stations, and unfortunately it all comes out of the same pie.