Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 26th, 2019

[Christopher Sheppard]

It's interesting. Sometimes it's hard to pinpoint where money is coming from for some of these friendship centre programs that do language learning. I just happen to be very close with the executive director from Native Montréal. He does over five indigenous languages with $100,000. Can you imagine a university delivering a language program, or a portion of one, for $100,000? That expectation would never be put on somebody, but Native Montréal works extremely hard to find five different indigenous language instructors to be available every week.

They moved into a new space and it wasn't enough space for their language classes. You can imagine that expecting anyone to do that for $100,000 is not really respecting indigenous languages.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

That's right.

If I'm not mistaken, in the friendship centre in Montreal there are up to 10 or 12 first nations.

[Christopher Sheppard]

They're from everywhere.

If you look at our centres, you have them in metropolises, really. In Montreal, you have the different first nations, you have people from other countries and you have Inuit people who go there. You have these multitudes of indigenous people from multiple communities, and you're teaching six indigenous languages every week on $100,000.

It's an unrealistic expectation to put on anyone every week, but we don't mind doing it. That it is now in the third year of forcing this community to do that really makes you think about what it would really take. If we were going to treat indigenous languages the same and teach them in a similar manner that we would in an institution, what would that really look like?

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Would you have liked to have been named clearly in the bill? Don't the friendship centres have common ground across Canada?

[Jocelyn Formsma]

I think it's important that the urban piece is reflected in here. Even within the definition of “Indigenous organization”, it's not clear whether you're talking about indigenous-owned and -operated organizations or indigenous representative organizations.

We're volunteer-run organizations. We are definitely indigenous, but to say that we represent a people and a group is a misnomer. It's the same with the media organizations, and maybe even organizations similar to to Ms. Shmon's.

I think it's important to at least name the urban organizations. If you want to put our name in there, we would be more than happy for it. Knowing that we're a primary provider to the urban environment, I think that would be good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you very much for that.

We are now going to Mr. Hogg for seven minutes.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you very much.

Could you give me a bit of a breakdown with respect to the aboriginal friendship centres across Canada? What percentage of indigenous people do you believe live in urban areas, and how would that break down for various provinces or regions across Canada?

[Christopher Sheppard]

It's on record from one of my previous presentations that the national number is 61.1%. We have an email from StatsCan to confirm that, and I think I provided it in one of my previous presentations.

I don't have a breakdown by province, unless Jocelyn is rocking that data somewhere. It's 61.1% of all indigenous people who live in urban communities.

[Jocelyn Formsma]

I don't know what the breakdown is percentage-wise, but I was just looking at some statistics that are available on the Urban Aboriginal Knowledge Network website, uakn.org.

In some areas—some of the bigger cities like Winnipeg, Edmonton—the percentages for indigenous peoples living in urban settings are anywhere from 8% to 12%, depending on which city you're looking at. With that website I just gave you and the research projects that were undertaken, there's a little snippet at the bottom that tells you the breakdown for each community that they had the research projects in.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Certainly, in British Columbia, we're told that within a two-kilometre radius of Main and Hastings in downtown Vancouver, there are more indigenous people living there than in the rest of the province.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

That's true.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Dan tells me that's true, and he doesn't live in B.C.

Did you want to comment on that?

[Karon Shmon]

I would add that the Métis are under-enumerated. There's nothing from StatsCan that would accurately reflect the number of Métis people anywhere in Canada, including urban centres. Métis people have never found an advantage to identify who they are, so when there's a census, they don't necessarily say who they are.

This started back with our veterans when they enlisted and were asked their ethnicity. When they said “Métis”, they were told there's no such thing. They looked at their surnames, and then depending on what it sounded like, they said they were a Scottish Canadian or a French Canadian. They just gave up.

It could also be viewed as a way to enable discrimination, so Métis people don't necessarily self-identify.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Where I was going with that—in finding out it's 61.1%—is that a lot of the indigenous people, particularly in downtown Vancouver, are street people. Many of them have a number of challenges.

We've heard consistently from the testimony in our hearings that indigenous language is an important part of culture, values, of being able to connect with others, to feel like you're a part of something.

Is there something that we could or should be doing that might do that, in terms of being able to look at the social value, social impact, being able to connect indigenous languages with the downtown areas, with the friendship centres?

At Main and Hastings in downtown Vancouver, we're establishing a large aboriginal centre. We have large components to it. Street people have been active in developing it. We took over the old City of Vancouver jail, so it's a really interesting place for them, going through the issues there and some of the rituals they have.

It seems to me, with 61%—and you tie that with the other testimony we've been hearing—that there may be some synergies there that could have a profound impact for some of those urban areas.

Could you comment on that, or help me with that?

[Christopher Sheppard]

I'll start by saying that Canada needs to start creating public policy based on facts. We have language legislation, and although 61.1% of indigenous people are urban, urban's not mentioned. Maybe we could start there. And it's not just there; it's across policy. It is a very challenging topic. Conversations need to be had in general, but I think when you start talking about the revitalization of languages and keeping the unique languages that exist only here, it's a reason to have those conversations.

I think making legislation and public policy decisions on data that we collect on every census, even when indigenous people always say that they're indigenous.... We don't even listen to the data that we have, and this has been the reality of friendship centres for the last 70 years.

I think the place to really start is to be honest with the legislation and the programs that Canada creates.

That's as honest as I can be.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I know that Paul Lacerte has done a really wonderful job in developing the aboriginal friendship centres in British Columbia; he expanded them and they're all thriving. He's now off doing his Moose Hide Campaign and is removed from that for this period of time, but he was certainly active in looking at the value they could have.

If you were to place some statement into this legislation that's consistent with the value you've been reflecting, what would you put in, and where would it be? You've put that challenge out there in saying we need to do that. What facts should we use? What data should we use? What should we put in here, given that Bill C-91 is about indigenous languages, yet everyone's telling us there's that strong correlation with this....

Is it wrong to put it in here? Is it something that would be able to help in some meaningful way?

[Jocelyn Formsma]

We don't want to speak against the distinctions-based approach, but what ends up happening on the ground with the facts is that urban...ends up getting lost within those three streams. We're all of them, and we're none of them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

You're out of time.

No, you don't get another one. I was just going to let her finish her answer.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

This is part of my previous one that I didn't quite—

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

No, she was finishing an answer.

[Jocelyn Formsma]

Exactly.

I think we already made the comment that we would like to have urban...reflected specifically within the bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

I will point out that we have gone slightly over time. Ms. McLeod said she had a question of about two minutes. If it's okay with everyone to give those two minutes, I would invite her.

[Cathy McLeod]

It has been suggested that there be an annex that identifies the different languages, but I'm also hearing that this might be almost too restrictive and we're better off not to have it. It sounds as though there are a number of different.... You talked about Michif.

Is an annex important or not?

If the friendship centres have something they could send to the committee, if they have potential wording that they think would be helpful, if they have anything to say, I would welcome it. What we've heard is that the communities believe that they have ownership over the language. To follow up with Mr. Hogg, how does that intersect with the reality of 60% being off reserve? I think we have that challenge there, so I would welcome a written brief for that.

But in terms of an annex that identifies all languages, do you have a quick “yes” or “no”?

[Karon Shmon]

I would say no, because it could be hog-tying the legislation, and I think there are communities of Métis people within urban centres.

[Cathy McLeod]

Thank you.