Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 21st, 2017

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Larry Maguire]

I call this meeting to order.

I welcome everyone, all our members and our guests, to the 47th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. I particularly want to welcome our witnesses, including Mr. Fraser from West Nova.

With that, you know the process. We'll give you time for your presentation. Then we'll go to seven-minute rounds of questions and five-minute rounds after that. We'll do that for both sessions. I'll also need a few minutes at the end of today's meeting for a couple of internal issues that the committee has to deal with.

Welcome, Mr. Fraser. We'll turn it over to you for your presentation.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a great honour to appear before the committee today.

I am very pleased that my Bill C-311 was passed unanimously at second reading in the House of Commons, so that it is before you today.

I want to thank you and acknowledge the efforts over the years of many members from all parties who in previous parliaments brought forward bills similar to this one as private members' bills. I would note that in particular Dan Harris, a member of the New Democratic Party, worked on this in the last Parliament. The bill made it to third reading in the House before dying on the Order Paper before the last election call.

I want to preface this with some remarks about the importance of Remembrance Day. Our beautiful and peaceful country did not happen by luck. It was built, brick by brick, by those who have gone before us, those who have protected and defended our liberties, values, and rights. The people who have served our country in our armed forces deserve our utmost respect.

November 11 is Remembrance Day. That marks the day in 1918 when the Great War, World War I, ended. It has come to symbolize and to solemnly remind us of those who have paid the supreme sacrifice in service to our country. From Ypres, Flanders Fields, and Vimy Ridge in World War I; to Dieppe, Italy, Africa, Normandy, and the Pacific in World War II; and to Korea, peacekeeping missions, the Gulf War, Afghanistan, and other conflicts around the world, there is a continuum of bravery and dedication by our Canadian Forces. Past, present, and future, we must honour them and their sacrifice. It is right that a grateful country appropriately pays tribute and thanks, and remembers our fallen and those who serve.

I therefore believe that Remembrance Day is very important for our country and for all Canadians. I think we should be raising its profile where and when possible, and we should ensure that it is being marked appropriately.

I note in special reflection that in April of this year, 2017, we mark the 100th anniversary of the battle of Vimy Ridge. It's a day that marks a special place in many Canadians' minds. It will be celebrated properly but remembered solemnly by our whole country. I think it's appropriate that we have this discussion the same year that we mark the 100th anniversary of the battle of Vimy Ridge.

You've all been provided with materials relating to my private member's bill, Bill C-311. I want to talk a little bit about the mechanics of the bill.

First, if you look at the provisions that it seeks to amend in the Holidays Act, you'll note that it seeks to add the word “legal” before the word “holiday” with reference to Remembrance Day in the Holidays Act. Other holidays that are specifically mentioned in the act are Canada Day and Victoria Day, which are, in that act, noted as legal holidays. For Remembrance Day, it is noted as just “holiday”. Proposed subsection 3(1) in my bill seeks to add the word “legal”.

With regard to proposed subsections 3(2) and (3), as I mentioned in my speech in the House of Commons, I propose that they be deleted, that they be struck from the bill entirely. My intent in bringing this bill forward was to elevate the status of Remembrance Day to ensure that we are giving it its due and putting it on a level equal to the other days in the Holidays Act. Proposed subsections 3(2) and (3) do not achieve these goals. I have realized since submitting my bill for consideration that they are problematic.

For example, proposed subsection 3(2) basically says that when November 11 is on a Saturday or Sunday, it would then put the holiday to the Monday. I don't believe that is the right thing to do. November 11 is Remembrance Day, and that is the day it should always be marked. It is not about having a holiday, so proposed subsection 3(2), I would suggest, should be struck.

Proposed subsection 3(3) refers to the flag at half-mast. It seemed like a good idea. I was advised that bringing this forward and then deleting it would be easier than trying to add it afterwards. However, having reflected on this, I realize it's problematic.

The proposed subsection reads as follows:

(3) On Remembrance Day, the Canadian flag on the Peace Tower shall be lowered to half-mast.

It's problematic in that if, for example, the Queen were in Ottawa that day to mark Remembrance Day, then her standard, by protocol, would fly over the Peace Tower. It would conflict with this provision. I therefore have no difficulty asking for this provision to be struck as well.

To remove proposed subsections 3(2) and (3), either your committee can vote them down at clause-by-clause or I can draft an amendment, which I'd be happy to do, to remove these provisions.

I'll now turn to what this bill does and what it does not do. This is a really important part of my presentation, because there's been some misinformation, or misunderstanding, about this.

First, what does the bill do? It's a modest measure to add consistency to the language in the federal Holidays Act to add the word “legal” and ensure that the same language that is used for Canada Day and Victoria Day is used for Remembrance Day. I believe this elevates the status, but at the very least it adds consistency to the language in our federal Holidays Act.

I believe it also affirms Parliament's commitment that November 11 is a very important day in Canada, an important day of solemn remembrance and reflection for those who have sacrificed for our country. I also believe it gives pause for us to reflect on the ways in which we honour the service of our service members, and ensures that we are appropriately remembering their service and appropriately honouring Remembrance Day.

What doesn't the bill do? This is really important. It doesn't make a national holiday. It can't. It's not within purview of Parliament to do that. It is up to the provinces to determine whether there is a statutory holiday, a day off, for their jurisdiction.

It doesn't give anyone the day off who doesn't already have it. Anybody in the federal civil service already would have November 11 as a day off because of collective agreements that have been reached. It may clarify, I suppose, at the federal level that this is to be the case, but it wouldn't give anyone the day off who doesn't already have it.

Third, it doesn't give any students a day off school who don't already have that day off school by virtue of provincial statute in their jurisdiction. Many provinces in Canada already have the day as a statutory holiday. Ontario and Quebec do not have it as a statutory holiday. Manitoba has a different law in place. Nova Scotia has the Remembrance Day Act, which in effect gives people the day off, but it's not technically a statutory holiday.

This bill will not make it a national holiday, will not give anyone the day off who doesn't already have it, and will not give any students the day off school who do not already have it. That is within the jurisdiction of the provinces.

The two main arguments that I've heard in opposition...and I know that Mr. White from the Dominion command will be testifying today. It's right to think about this, and I totally respect the Legion Dominion command's point of view, but I disagree. Their argument is that the children should be in school on Remembrance Day to ensure that they are marking the solemn occasion.

What I would say to this is that, first of all, this bill doesn't have anything to do with that, because it doesn't make it a day off. It can't. That's up to the provinces. But in response to the children being in school on Remembrance Day, November 11 is sometimes on a Saturday or Sunday. I don't think anyone would suggest that it would be a problem for schoolchildren to have veterans coming in the week leading up to Remembrance Day to mark the occasion, learn about it, and then perhaps have an opportunity to attend the cenotaph with their parents.

Second, in Nova Scotia, where I come from, Veterans' Week, in the days leading up to Remembrance Day, is well marked. Veterans come into the schools, mark the occasion, teach children about Remembrance Day, and then the children have November 11 to attend with their family.

The other argument is that it could be just another day off. Again, this bill has nothing to do with giving people the day off, but to that I would say that we've seen increasing attendance at Remembrance Day ceremonies in jurisdictions where this is a holiday. That's particularly true in Nova Scotia, which I can attest to, and we'll hear evidence relating to that on Thursday, I believe.

I would also say, though, that we must ensure that it does not become just another day off, that it does not become like Victoria Day, for example, which is always on a Monday for a long weekend. We must ensure that education goes along with any change in provincial ways of marking the occasion.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that I believe this bill is well reasoned and is a modest bill in what it does. The fact that it adds consistency in language and elevates Remembrance Day to the same level as Canada Day and Victoria Day in federal statutes is appropriate, and it affirms Parliament's commitment to ensure that this very important day of reflection and thanks to our fallen is given its due respect.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Larry Maguire]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fraser.

I didn't say it earlier, but this afternoon we are of course dealing with Bill C-311, your private member's bill.

I gave you a few extra seconds to wrap up. With that, I'll open it up to questions.

Mr. Samson, please.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Fraser, for coming in today and sharing with us your bill and some of your suggestions.

I'd like to dig a little deeper and get personal. Let's start with you. Why did you want to bring this bill forward?

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I remember as a child always marking Remembrance Day with my family and going to the cenotaph on the 11th. I had the opportunity to do that with my family because we didn't have to go to school that day. Also, the important stories we heard from veterans who came into our schools in the days leading up to Remembrance Day always stuck with me. It was always very important for our community to show its support for our veterans by going to the ceremonies. Where people are able to take the time off work or do not have to be in school, I think it's a wonderful thing that we see increasing attendance at ceremonies.

Also, I had the very good fortune, after graduating from university, to be a tour guide at Vimy Ridge in France. That really opened my eyes to the sacrifice that Canadians made and to the pride that Canadians have in their service members and what they accomplished, not only at Vimy Ridge but throughout the continuum of service we have seen in our country. That makes us such a wonderful country to live in. Anything we can do to shine a light on Remembrance Day, to elevate the status of this important day, and to make sure we're marking it appropriately is very important to me.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you. I hope you're going to have an opportunity on April 9 to go to Vimy Ridge to participate in that very important day. Since you've worked there, it has an effect on you as well.

As a former superintendent of schools in Nova Scotia, I have to say that I agree 100% with you that the work being done in the schools prior to the day—especially in Nova Scotia, where it's a holiday—is exceptional. We always have someone coming in to talk with students. There are all kinds of activities, and there's a curriculum that's focused on learning more about the importance of that day. As you indicated, I've noticed a big increase in numbers in the last five or six years, with a lot of students and young families coming in. That's extremely positive. It's some more light that we can bring to it.

Tell me more about your constituency. What do the people in your constituency think? Are they all in favour? To what extent? You have some Legions as well.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I do. I have many Legions in my riding. I'm very pleased to meet with them on a regular basis and certainly to speak to them about this bill. I've had nothing but positive conversations about the intent of this bill. The Remembrance Day ceremonies that the Legions put on in my riding are very well attended. The attachment people have to their Legions and the respect they have for them is very well received, and rightfully so.

The conversations I've had generally with the public in the area I represent have been all positive. I've not had one negative comment with regard to elevating the status of Remembrance Day to ensure we're properly and appropriately marking this solemn day of remembrance. Also, I shouldn't limit this to just my constituency. You asked me that question, but I've heard from many people right across the country with the same point of view. In a modest way, I think this bill does what I intended it to do.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Did you say that all the Legions in your riding are in support of this bill?

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

The Legion members are. I understand, obviously, that we'll be hearing from the Dominion command in the second round today. I respect their opinion, and they'll share that. It's the Legion members I've been speaking to who have given me their thoughts. We'll be hearing from a Legion member in my riding on Thursday, I believe.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I wonder if the reason behind that, because I'm hearing the same thing, is that it's a holiday in Nova Scotia, and has been for a long time. They recognize it and have been able to openly participate as families on that special day. Do you think that may have an influence on their support?

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

It may. If you see it working well, then obviously you're confident that it's the correct thing to mark the occasion in that way.

Again, though, this bill of course doesn't do that. If it encourages provinces to reflect on the way in which they mark Remembrance Day in their jurisdiction, then certainly they can have that debate. This bill in a modest way elevates the status of Remembrance Day and puts it on equal footing, as I think it should, with Canada Day in federal law.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I don't want to put you on the spot, but can you tell me which provinces do not have—

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Ontario and Quebec do not have it as a statutory holiday. Nova Scotia and Manitoba have a separate way of dealing with it. In Nova Scotia in particular, they have the Remembrance Day Act. It's not technically a statutory holiday, because the employer can give the employee the day off or another day off in lieu of the November 11 date. In practice it works out to be November 11.

Ontario and Quebec do not have it as a statutory holiday.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

We do in Newfoundland.

[An hon. member]

Of course. It all starts in Newfoundland, doesn't it?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Everything does.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Larry Maguire]

Thank you, Mr. Samson, for your questions.

I welcome Mr. Brassard to our committee and turn it over to him for seven minutes.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's a pleasure to be here today, with my honourable colleague Mr. Waugh and the others.

Mr. Fraser and I sit on the veterans affairs committee. I know that he's very sincere when he deals with veterans issues, and I can sense the sincerity in his private member's bill here.

You talked earlier about the Legion. As you said, we'll be hearing from Mr. White, Dominion secretary with the Dominion command of the Royal Canadian Legion. They represent roughly 300,000 members. You said that some members will be coming in on Thursday.

In previous testimony, Mr. White said the following:

The Legion's position on this issue is our concern that Canadians, if given the time off as a legal holiday, will not take the time to remember. It may simply become another long weekend or mid-week break.

What would you say to that, Mr. Fraser?

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I appreciate the opportunity to address that.

First of all, this does not make a day off. Beyond that, if I were to answer the question, it would go outside of the scope of what this bill does. But I'll take it on, because I believe that in the jurisdictions where it is a day off to mark the solemn occasion of Remembrance Day, it works very well. We have not seen any diminishment at all in the affinity Canadians have for veterans or in the attendance at these solemn events. We've seen an increase.

I think that's the answer. We know that this will not be just another day off. It won't be like Victoria Day long weekend, for example, with Victoria Day always being on a Monday. I also think it provides an opportunity for veterans to come into the schools in the week leading up, in Veterans' Week. If it were on November 11, of course, they would either have to be in the school or at the cenotaph. They wouldn't be able to do both. This provides them that opportunity.

Finally, again, I totally respect the Dominion command and Mr. White and their point of view, but I wonder what question they actually asked of their members. I don't know the answer to that. If it was, “Do you support this being a national holiday?”, that's not the right question that's pertinent to this bill.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Okay.

Everyone in this Parliament, and everyone who's come before us, has always respected veterans and the price they've paid, and their families have paid, for their sacrifices. In what other more effective ways, in addition to this, can we honour our veterans? Perhaps I can ask you, as a member of the veterans affairs committee, for your answer on that.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

That's a very good question. As you know, on the veterans affairs committee we are working on recommendations about how we ensure that our veterans are being taking care of by our country. I think that's the first commitment, to ensure that as a government we are taking care of our veterans and offering them the compassion and care they deserve.

As far as commemoration is concerned, we've seen other ways that our country can commemorate the way in which veterans are marked in this country. We can always make improvements on that. Education has to be the first and foremost piece to ensure that students across the country and people across the country are constantly reminded of the importance of Remembrance Day, what that means for our country, and how important that day is to ensure that we remember the fallen.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

As you said at the top of your remarks, seven bills have come before us in the past. They've either failed or died on the Order Paper. Why should this bill be passed?

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I think the last bill should have passed. It died on the Order Paper. For one reason or another it didn't get done. It was at third reading just before the election.

I've looked into some of the bills previous to that, some of them backdating quite a long time ago. The wording was quite different in them, so I'm sure there were substantive reasons why they didn't get passed.

I think if people understand what this bill is trying to accomplish, they'll recognize that it's a bill that Parliament should easily pass, in that it does add consistency to the language in the Holidays Act and affirms Parliament's recognition of Remembrance Day as one of the most important days, if not the most important, in our calendar. I can't answer all of the questions in terms of the history, but I know that it's the right thing to do now.