Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2017

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I want to thank you all for being here today. As the official opposition critic for Veterans Affairs, I've certainly seen, over the course of the last four months since I assumed this position, just how important recognition and remembrance is to our veterans. Nobody around here underestimates the value of the way we honour those men and women who sacrificed for us in the past to give us the freedoms, the democracy, and the rule of law that we currently enjoy. Certainly, as I tell often people, when I sit in the House of Commons, I think of those sacrifices that have been made, the blood that's been spilt, the people who have died, families who've lost loved ones, as I'm sure my colleagues do. To allow us to sit in the symbol of democracy is pretty overwhelming, to be quite frank.

However, on the bill itself, Mr. Geddes and Ms. McNeill, the other day we had Brad White from the Dominion Command of the Canadian Legion here. Since 1970 they've dealt with this issue 15 times at their convention, most recently in 2016. Mr. White explained to us how the process of any resolutions come to the floor, and every one of those times, as recently as 2016, the resolution on a similar type of issue that we're dealing with here today has been defeated. I know Mr. White was here on behalf of the 275,000 members of the Legion.

Mr. Geddes, were you at that convention? Perhaps you can share with the committee some of the discussion that went on with respect to the resolution and let us know how you voted on it.

[Dave Geddes]

I voted for it, but let me just digress a little.

I've been to the Legion conventions for the last 10 years, yet when that came to the floor, it was never brought forward like this bill is—that it would be a federal one, and it would be up to the provinces to enact it as they see fit. I think that if it had been brought in that manner, you would have seen a different vote. When things come to the floor, they're not necessarily the same as what we're hearing here today.

You have all kinds of things that come to the convention. Over the years, as they proceed, some of them come back, because people feel so strongly about them. They bring them back in a different manner that explains the idea much better, and you'll see them pass.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

One of the things we heard about the other day is something I've certainly seen in the role that I currently have. As active as I was during Remembrance Week, the elevation of the prominence of Remembrance Week in leading up to Remembrance Day, in every community—I think we can all agree—has really shown to elevate itself into the honour and respect it deserves.

I want to ask all three of you—and I know our time is short here—do you really think that adding “legal” to the term “holiday” would actually change the way we honour our veterans in this country, those who've made the ultimate sacrifice? If so, in what way would it do that?

[Dave Geddes]

I will answer first, if you allow me—

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

You'll need to be short, because I want all three of your opinions.

[Dave Geddes]

First, I think it would show our veterans that the government really does care. I understand that you people do, but to do this on our 150th birthday, for the veterans.... I think you would get 100% support from them.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Mr. FitzGerald, go ahead.

[John FitzGerald]

I agree. Yes, I think changing would help. It gives it prominence. It gives it an importance and a weight—or I can use the word “gravitas”—that it deserves, and that our history and our duty to remember and honour our veterans and those who put themselves in harm's way even today in our Canadian Forces deserve.

That's my short answer.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Mrs. McNeill, go ahead.

[Wilma McNeill]

Yes, I agree that putting it up in the status with Canada Day and Victoria Day will help. Maybe it will wake up some of the provinces and they'll come on board. I think it's very important that we have it, and then it will be there forever. It won't be taken away.

This is the time to do it, as everybody is making celebrations for the 150th anniversary of the birth of Canada. Wouldn't this be a great way to honour our veterans once and for all for the sacrifice? When we think of what they did for us.... We live in a democracy, free, and we can do whatever we want, and it's because of the veterans.

It's just a pity that it was ever taken away. We need to have the federal government step up to the plate and set an example. As I say, I have written to every prime minister and every premier in this great Canada of ours. I didn't want to get into the provinces, but when the Association of Municipalities of Ontario brought it, Prime Minister Chrétien said, “Forget it.” He said, “We can't tell the provinces what to do.”

You're not going to tell the provinces what to do. The provinces, I know, can do it. This is not the time to talk about the provinces. Today is to get this here, and then we'll work on improving it.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Would it be safe to say, then, that this is more of a subjective change, just to reflect...? It doesn't have any legal bearing or legal status; it's just a subjective change to give our veterans the reverence they want.

[Wilma McNeill]

Give them more—

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

In your view, it's just subjective, then. Is that correct?

[Wilma McNeill]

I believe that it gives it.... I think the veterans deserve the same status as Canada Day and Victoria Day. I think that this bill will do that. We talk about the veterans, and we know all of the things from Afghanistan. I talked about Cirillo. Canada came together when that man was killed on the Hill. I went to the press and said that. Wouldn't it be great if we could get Remembrance Day? We all feel the same way, and I think this bill will be a good start to doing that.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Pierre Nantel]

Thank you, Ms. McNeill.

Thank you, Mr. Brassard.

Over to you, Mr. Breton.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

My riding is also home to a legion. We have just one, but the members are good people, and they are, of course, very involved in commemorating Remembrance Day. They put on the only major event in my riding marking the occasion. Many people participate.

My question is for Mr. FitzGerald.

I'd like you to tell us, in your own words, the difference between a legal holiday and a holiday in terms of how Remembrance Day is observed. What we are trying to do at the end of the day is commemorate our veterans and military members.

[John FitzGerald]

Thank you.

If I may, I would interpret the word “legal”, as you've drafted it here in proposed subsection 3(1), proposing a legal holiday—and I stand to be corrected, please—as meaning a holiday established by statute, because you asked about “statutory”. Statutes of Canada say that in and for Canada, throughout Canada this will be observed, and then it becomes the law of the land.

In the Labour Standards Act of Newfoundland and Labrador, we call it a public holiday, but obviously it's a piece of provincial legislation. There may also be orders in council, minutes of council, or minutes of the Lieutenant Governor in Council that establish that, as well as Victoria Day and other days throughout the year.

I would just make one general comment to the committee, and it would be this. We can establish everything by law, but you cannot legislate this into the hearts of Canadians.

I'm quite aware that we talk about doing this in the schools. That's not a federal competence under the division of powers in our Constitution. The school system, the education system is the jurisdiction of the provinces.

However, the Government of Canada can set the tone. For parts of the country where there may be different ways of doing this, I think it's an important statement of where the hearts of our parliamentarians, the Parliament of Canada, and the Government of Canada are.

Certainly you can ask your clerks and your legal experts. I have a good education, but it's not in law. I've read a fair bit of Canadian history and the history of Parliament, and in fact political and constitutional history, but I'm not a lawyer. The definition of “legal” is of, related to, or established by law.

To get what this will exactly mean by using the word “legal” in this sense is perhaps something that your committee could ask the legislative drafters, or, in fact, you could ask the proponent of the piece of legislation as to what was intended there.

I can't speak of what your intent was, but I can say that I believe this will go a great distance towards putting this front and centre and helping Canadians to think about this and to take it into consideration in a way that may not have been done before.

It may indeed, of course, have ramifications for holidays, time off, and allowing people to attend Remembrance Day ceremonies, all of which in my view are very good things.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Thank you.

My second question is for Mr. Geddes.

I'm going to pick up on the question Mr. Brassard asked you earlier about what a high-ranking national official from the Royal Canadian Legion told the committee at the beginning of the week. The organization has had a number of resolutions on the issue. I don't remember the exact details, but further to the 2015 or 2016 resolution, the legion had opposed the idea of making Remembrance Day a legal holiday. Some 24 months have gone by, and not everyone is on the same page.

I know you are speaking as an individual, but are you able to tell us whether the legion people are firm in their position or whether they would consider softening their stance.

[Dave Geddes]

Yes, I will. Thank you very much.

My feeling is this. As I mentioned before, the legion's Dominion Convention is only held every second year, because it's on the even years. There are many things that come to the floor year after year, but they're not put to the membership in a manner that they fully understand, because, as you well know, when you get 1,500 or 2,000 people in a room and you bring a motion for them to vote on and it's not very clear, some go one way and some go the other.

I do know that some of the same motions have come back year after year, but worded in a manner that people fully understand, which may not have been done in the first place. I think there would be no problem on this Bill C-311. It would pass if it were explained to them in the manner in which it is printed today.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Pierre Nantel]

Thank you.

It is now over to Kevin Waugh, of the Conservative Party.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you.

I want to thank all three of you here today, especially Dave for your service, and certainly Wilma also for your service as a military spouse.

Oddly enough, this past weekend in Saskatoon, my hometown, I talked to Jean Fells. She has been a war bride since 1946. She's coming to Ottawa for the 71st national convention in May. We had a good chat on just where things were falling.

Oddly enough, today at 11 o'clock I was at the Peace Tower. I saw the changing of the pages, the Books of Remembrance. Mark and Vanesa Vanstone from Saskatoon were there with me, and it was a touching moment for us today. For Mark in particular, because he had many relatives who did participate, unfortunately, in the wars, it was a time of reflection. We spent a long time up there today.

I was a school board trustee for 10 years before I became a member of Parliament. I want all of you to realize that in Saskatoon we have the largest indoor Remembrance Day service in the country. It has been getting bigger each and every year. The numbers are moving in the direction of 9,000 to10,000.

In every school in my city and surrounding area, and I would say in the province of Saskatchewan, the whole week is dedicated to veterans. I just want to put on the record that it is very important in our province, and MP Anderson, from Swift Current, would back me up on this,

From some of the things I've heard today, how does the change in wording in this bill really affect Remembrance Day, or people's observance, if it is remembrance? I think that's the first one—you know, “legal” or “holiday”. To be honest with you, I don't see the change at all, but I do see in my city and in my province more and more Canadians accepting Remembrance Day and all the other days associated with the military.

I'm going to leave it at that. I'm just going to ask you this, Wilma. Who do you represent? You're here today, and I know you've had these motions with the Dominion Legion, and we've heard that they've had these votes maybe 15 times since 1970. I'm trying to find out from the RCAF and the Canadian Forces, and I don't see anywhere that they've had a vote on this.

I'm really trying to absorb this, because we did have the Legion here on Tuesday. I've spent the last 15 to 20 minutes trying to find these other organizations that you have eloquently talked about, and their service to this country, but I haven't seen any documentation that says they would like this change.

[Wilma McNeill]

I have been talking to the RCAF Association and the navy, although not so much the navy, but the point I was making is they are all veterans. Some of them have probably been members of the Legion over the years. When I spoke with John Stewart, the president of the Royal Canadian Air Force Association in Sarnia, he supported it, and he was to get hold of the national for me.

That didn't happen, as I said, but I know they support it. The reason I'm speaking about the Legion is that the Legion is always mentioned. I'm only trying to point out that there are other military people who would support this idea, and I think this bill is a good start to get more people involved.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

That's a good point.

Dave or John, do you have comments to make? I don't see it has been brought up anywhere if they do have associations or AGMs. I don't see what was brought up with the air force or the forces.