Evidence of meeting #73 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was systemic.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual
From what we know about the recorded hate crimes, they're worse.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Okay.
You said Muslim children are growing up in a post-9/11 world where they're feeling much more discriminated against, but have you noticed also in your studies that other South Asian people who look Muslim or other people who look Muslim are also being discriminated against and attacked?
Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual
Absolutely. I think the Sikh community in particular is a community that has received a lot of attacks. Hindus have been attacked for being misrecognized as Muslim, so, absolutely.
I want to make the point that Islamophobia I really do see as part of a broader problem of religious discrimination and systemic racism, and I really do think that if we address one issue to the detriment of another, then we will not have succeeded.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Ms. Chaudhry.
I'm afraid we've run out of time, Anju.
We will go to the Conservatives, and David Anderson, for seven minutes.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you to our witnesses for being with us today.
I want to follow up on Ms. Dhillon's line of questioning.
When you're talking about Islamophobia, I think this is the sixth definition of it we've had and you've talked about things like hyperbolic fear, anti-Muslim expression, ideology and those kinds of things involved in your expression. You've written in some of your other work that religious texts mean what religious communities say that they mean, which I found interesting. Does that same standard apply to terms such as Islamophobia? In your opinion, is it the community itself that defines that, or is it defined generally by society? How do we come to that definition?
Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual
I think it's a definition that has to emerge in consultation. The society comes up with it in consultation with the people who are being marginalized. If we think about how anti-Semitism is defined, some might argue that it's an imperfect term because Arabs are also Semites. Nevertheless, it has a particular definition. I'm not worried about finding the perfect term to describe an irrational fear of Muslims and Islam, a hyperbolic fear of Muslims and Islam. Usually when students come into my classes in the university, they do not know the difference between Islam and Muslim and how to use that correctly in a sentence. Usually it takes a few weeks for us to get to a place where they're able to do that in a literate way.
As I mentioned earlier, I don't think that people who are engaging in Islamophobic discourse can always tell the difference between Islam and Muslims or really worry about differentiating between them because the hate, as I said, is not very sophisticated.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Perhaps I could take this in a different direction, then.
If what you've said is accurate, that the committee should define that, I'm wondering, this term is used, where Islam dominates, to silence all dissent. Raif Badawi would be a good example of that, of someone who has dared to speak out, and faces a ridiculous sentence. We've been unable to get him back to Canada or whatever. But that is the term as being defined by those in the community.
That's really been the question in the discussion in Canada. Whose definition are we using? Are we using a Saudi definition as being applied to Raif Badawi, or are we using one that talks about the child who's going to school, is insulted, and bullied?
From our perspective, we needed to put some definition on that because it means almost anything to anyone who's using it. Can you help us with that?
Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual
Absolutely. My work, my research, and my scholarship is about having self-critical conversations amongst Muslims, so intra-Muslim conversations that are self-critical. I am in no way interested in promoting a definition of Islamophobia that would restrict my own speech. Legitimate critique, in my mind, is not Islamophobic.
Islamophobia is irrational and hyperbolic speech about Islam and Muslims that demonizes them, that dehumanizes them. I trust the hate speech laws in Canada, which I think are robust along with the legislative system. When somebody makes an accusation of Islamophobia, and if they appear before a judge, he or she will make a decision about whether that is, indeed, Islamophobic or a legitimate critique. In no way do I see Islamophobia as a way to not have difficult conversations.
In response to that, communities need to have a sense of security in order to engage in self-critical conversation. Islamophobia stops that from happening. If I'm spending my time saying, “I'm a human, I'm a human,” I can't ask myself and my community difficult questions.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
That's exactly what we argued during the debate. That is what it was doing within the community. It was stopping that discussion, so I thank you for the contribution.
Ms. Go, I'd like to ask you a question. Could you talk a little bit about economic development within communities, and how that deals with some of the issues you've talked about, and the lessening of racism? You've talked about the differences in wages, employment opportunities, and gender. How can we improve on that? Typically, when the economy improves, people's lives improve, and I think that we deal more seriously with these issues.
Clinic Director, Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
I will give you an example of the opposite of that statement where the economy improves, but then lives of certain groups are not improved.
There was a study by the United Way of greater Toronto. It looked at the poverty rates in Toronto between 1981 to 2000, so you see the trajectory of the economy changing over time, improving over time. Poverty rates among non-racialized, for example, white communities in Toronto, actually dropped by 28% over that time period. For racialized groups, people of colour, the poverty rate increased by 361% over the same time period.
If you look at other studies, they say the same thing. When the economy was booming, the wage gap between the racialized communities and the non-racialized communities did not close. In fact, they expanded, which is what led to what we have been calling the racialization of poverty in Canada, meaning that if you're a person of colour, if you're indigenous, you are two to six times more likely to live below the poverty line compared to a non-racialized person. Because most of us derive our income largely from employment, the jobs that we are in, poverty is very much linked to the issue of economic development.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Do you do that same data breakdown within the communities?
Clinic Director, Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
Yes. Maybe I can provide you with some statistics. If you look at the different communities, Somali, Chinese, Vietnamese, or whatever, in the 2006 Statistics Canada census, you have information there that you can see the different poverty lines for different communities, and you can see the different income levels. With the exception of the Filipino and Japanese communities, every other community of colour earned less income.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Do you do that breakdown within communities, then, to determine the difference of income within a community, or do you throw, basically, community in one set of data?
Clinic Director, Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
The statistics are from Statistics Canada, so whatever it collects, we use as data.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thanks very much.
Very well done, David.
We're going to the NDP. Ms. Blaney, you have seven minutes.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you both for being here today.
In my background, I worked for a non-profit organization that served newcomers and dealt with anti-racism. It was a short period of time in B.C. when there was actually funding that allowed communities to take action plans and do local activism around encouraging.... That has been sadly missing.
I have a couple of things I would like to hear from both of you. First, between 2005 and 2010, we had the Canadian action plan against racism. I want to hear what your thoughts are about that. For me, I really think it's time to renew and refresh that because we need people on the ground doing the work.
Clinic Director, Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
I certainly support the idea, which is why we're calling for another national action plan against racism. The 2005 action plan came as a result of the Canadian government's promise to the World Conference Against Racism when it signed the declaration and program of action. Dr. Fry was very much part of that. An action plan was developed at the time, which then sat on a shelf for the next 10 years. Of course, things have changed. The action plan back then may not be as relevant today. One of the issues which I think the action plan back then didn't address was Islamophobia, which I think is a very important issue for us to address today. That's why I think it's important for the government to do consultations with the communities most affected, different racialized communities, in order to develop an action plan that will look at the different social and economic disadvantages, incidents of hate, systemic racism, and government policies and actions. It needs to apply a racial equity lens across the board in order to come up with an action plan that is comprehensive and effective.
Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual
I would agree with everything that was just said. I would also add that when the government does community consultations, it's important to see communities even as homogeneous. With regard to the Muslim community, we are just over a million people in Canada, just over 3% of the population. Muslims form a very diverse group of people in Canada. They come from different ethnicities, backgrounds, classes, and races, so they experience.... For example, the Islamophobia that a black Muslim woman will experience will be different from what an Arab man will experience. It's important to recognize the diversity within communities and to consult especially people in the community who are often marginalized.
I would only add that, but I support what you've just said.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you.
One of the things I think is a barrier for us moving forward is the quality of the data collection. Right now, we're hearing mostly what we're hearing in the RCMP. However, I think you talked so well about how hard it can be to report and the challenge of feeling it has to go to a certain place to be a hate crime before you can take that step.
From your perspectives, what is a safer and more inclusive way to get reporting so we actually have the data and information that will help us make these types of decisions?
Clinic Director, Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
One of the issues with hate crime stats is.... Well, if you look at Statistics Canada, its source of information is police reports, so only hate crimes reported to police will show up in the Statistics Canada report. It's the same with the RCMP. As Ayesha just mentioned, many people will never file a report. Of course, we also repealed the provision under the Canadian Human Rights Act that deals with hate speech, so that's another source of information that is gone.
I think it's important for all ministries, all government departments, to have this culture of collecting data. It's not just about hate crime data; it's about collecting data in order to understand the impact of our policies and laws on different communities. You have the Statistics Canada data, which gives you the baseline: this is the population, where we are. In order to measure disproportionate impact, the government agencies themselves must collect data, so they can measure against the Statistics Canada data.
Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual
The only thing I would add is that maybe doing surveys directly with diverse communities would be really helpful. Also, in terms of the RCMP and making it easier, right now, there is often a crisis of confidence between communities and the police force, especially when certain segments of the population are overrepresented and overcriminalized. I think training for RCMP would also be really useful in this conversation, and engaging communities in that training would be really useful as well.
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
I think it's an important part of the conversation about what systemic racism and discrimination really is.
Until we start to quantify that and have proper data, and are open to those stories and to the training that needs to happen.... I know as a mother of indigenous children, I've seen things toward my own children that are horrifying. I think we can't ever stop looking at these realities.
Can you tell us how systemic discrimination impacts individuals and communities over the long term?
Clinic Director, Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
I guess I'll use economic employment as an example.
Because of discrimination, they are unable to access good-paying, decent jobs. You are trapped in precarious employment situations where your income tends to be lower and you tend to be living in poverty. Your life chances are lower. The future of your children is more restricted. It becomes a generational issue as a result of that one area of systemic racism.
Of course, some call this a prison pipeline for the indigenous, and the African Canadian community as well.