Canadian Heritage Committee on Sept. 27th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Sorry.

May I suggest, Ms. Raza, that when other witnesses come up, you might have an opportunity to finish what you're saying or to expand on what you're saying, but that's up to the individual member as they move further.

[Raheel Raza]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Next is Mr. Anderson for the Conservatives.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Madam.

I want to make a point that it's actually a little distressing to see some of my colleagues here basically filibustering their time to keep our witness today from being able to answer questions, or having no interest in asking questions. I guess that hasn't been unusual in this debate. With so much of this issue, it seems they've been more interested in hearing their own voices than anyone else's.

I want to thank you for being here today, and I'm going to give you some opportunity to answer some questions.

You've talked about reform. It has been important to you. As it takes place, we want to avoid the excesses that have happened in other countries. You mentioned the sharia courts and practices, and some of the councils that have been set up. Some of us, outside of committee this week, had a chance to sit with Baroness Cox, and to talk with her. She has taken up the cause of young women, and you've taken up that cause as well.

Can you tell us a little bit about the consequences in young women's lives of the courts, how they developed, who manages them, and what we can do to avoid some of the problems in the future that other countries are facing on some of these issues?

[Raheel Raza]

Thank you for that very important question. I work closely with Baroness Cox, and in fact, I have travelled across the Atlantic to give testimony to the House of Lords in England on the exact same issue. As you may be aware, there are over 85 sharia courts operating in the United Kingdom, and these were established with the blessing of the British government until the problems started arising.

When I had gone there last year, there were witnesses who came forward with many stories of Muslim women who were left in limbo because these sharia courts are practising marriage, divorce, and custody of children with no accountability. The marriages they're performing are not recorded in the civil courts by the government, so if a man says “I divorce you” three times, as was the practice, the woman has absolutely no recourse to go for any kind of custody of her children or financial benefit.

We brought in the victims, and finally the House of Lords started hearing the stories, and they understood that the lack of accountability of the sharia courts was a problem. They also wanted to hear from me about our experience in Ontario when there was a move to have sharia courts. We actually lobbied for over a year and we got the law changed, which allowed for arbitration and mediation. In the meantime, my recommendation to them was that these courts should be accountable. They have heard hundreds and thousands of stories of the victims of these sharia courts, who are 99.9% women. They are rethinking this issue, and I'm working with Baroness Cox again to try to get it moving.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

We can't deny there's been anti-Muslim sentiment in Canada and episodes of bigotry and hatred. I think you've said you don't believe that's systemic. What are the solutions to that problem? We have some problems in this country. What are your suggestions? You've talked about reform, but what other recommendations would you have for us?

[Raheel Raza]

My recommendation is that the communities themselves should be empowered to bring about change. This is work that should be taken over by the thriving Muslim communities here. We have a large Muslim population. I don't see this happening. I don't see round-table conferences in mosques or in Islamic organizations in which this issue is being discussed, regarding the concerns or the way that we can deal with it.

One of the recommendations was interfaith dialogue, which is an important component. I'm very involved in that as well, where the communities talk to each other. We need to speak with those communities that have faced racism and discrimination before us.

Every immigrant community that has come into Canada—the Italians, the Jewish community, the Irish community—faced its own sets of challenges. We need to sit with them and figure out how they dealt with it. There were no laws in place. There were no motions in place to help them.

I don't believe that a government motion or any kind of a study is going to help this. I believe we have to take responsibility as Muslim communities to discuss and debate this problem, to find the solutions from within, and then ask the government how they can help us.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Who do you see taking the leadership? Is there leadership in the community to do that or does it come back to this committee and this motion to say some of these things need to take place and the government needs to be involved?

[Raheel Raza]

I believe this is what Islamic organizations and the mosques are there for. There is leadership there. They should take the responsibility. Unfortunately, some of the wrong organizations are taking the leadership. We have been approached by the legal department and by the police department who ask, who should we go to? Sometimes the go-to people are not the right people because they are the ones who are involved in the hate messaging, so we need to be cognizant of that.

The people who need to do this are grassroots people and grassroots organizations. Certainly, the government can give recommendations and perhaps help with funding to set up groups that can arrange for what I call a safe space between the mosque and morgue for our youth, so that they can learn about radicalization and would not become victims of the kind of hate messaging that is taking place.

First of all, we have to have an open and honest discussion about these issues.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I'm running out of time as well.

We've had some witnesses who've come forward to encourage us to put restrictions on freedom of speech. Should we be considering any further restrictions on freedom of speech, beyond what the Supreme Court has laid out?

[Raheel Raza]

Absolutely not. I'm fighting tooth and nail for freedom of speech. There should be no restrictions on freedom of speech. Every Canadian citizen should have a right to ask any question and to criticize those practices that are against human rights.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

You worked with female-led, mixed-gender, interfaith prayer groups. How has that worked? Have you faced persecution or criticism because of your involvement in those activities?

[Raheel Raza]

I've had my share of threats and hate mail. It's terrible to have a hate mail folder on your computer, but I do. However, it has worked well because now there are five mosques across the world that are run by women. The culture of the mosques here has been so misogynist and patriarchal that women decided that they were going to open their own mosques. Yes, it has been controversial, but every change starts with the first step and it has been taken up. Today, women in Saudi Arabia can drive. This is how change comes, by someone standing up to say that there needs to be gender equality or there needs to be equal human rights.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

How is that working in Canada?

[Raheel Raza]

Very well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Raza.

Next, we have Jenny Kwan, for the NDP.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Raza, for your presentation.

I am particularly interested in the point that you made around the need for interfaith dialogue. I think from the previous panel, we heard one of the witnesses say something to the effect that you can't legislate the feeling of hate or love for that matter. I think that is true. Although it's fair enough for us to acknowledge that hate is a learned behaviour. Therefore, from that perspective, where we can address these issues and where I think government can have a role is perhaps to facilitate dialogue around this. You talked about the need for that dialogue.

In terms of recommendations, since that's where we need to focus as well, should the government be facilitating with NGOs and others to engage in this dialogue, so that we have cross-cultural understanding and interfaith understanding and awareness among different peoples and different groups? I wonder if you would comment on that and then I have something else to add to that.

[Raheel Raza]

Thank you. Yes, I do believe it's important to have a dialogue between communities, not just faith communities but between all communities and to learn from each other.

I want to pick up very quickly on what you said that's extremely important in this discussion, which is that hate is a learned behaviour. Hate is taught. No one is born hating. They are taught to do it.

Now we have certain religious institutions here that have been giving messages of hate. I think this is where the government should be involved. There should be an accountability of these organizations and institutions, and there are specifics of certain mosques in Toronto and in Quebec where hate...and even the Quebec imam asking for the Jews to be killed. This is not something that we should have happening in Canada, because that is where the hate comes from.

No one is born a terrorist. They are radicalized. We have to go to the heart of where the radicalization is taking place, and those hate messages, if the government is aware of them, should be stemmed at the core because this Canada is not a place where we want messages of hate.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

Actually this ties very nicely into the next item that I want to bring to your attention and ask you a question on.

In the motion, it actually references a petition, petition e-411, which was brought to the House of Commons by way of a motion and it was supported unanimously. I think it's important actually to put this on the record because all this stuff needs to be put in context of what we're talking about. Petition e-411 actually says this:

Whereas:

Islam is a religion of over 1.5 billion people worldwide. Since its founding more than 1400 years ago, Muslims have contributed, and continue to contribute, to the positive development of human civilization. This encompasses all areas of human endeavors including the arts, culture, science, medicine, literature, and much more;

Recently an infinitesimally small number of extremist individuals have conducted terrorist activities while claiming to speak for the religion of Islam. Their actions have been used as a pretext for a notable rise of anti-Muslim sentiments in Canada; and

These violent individuals do not reflect in any way the values or the teachings of the religion of Islam. In fact, they misrepresent the religion. We categorically reject all their activities. They in no way represent the religion, the beliefs and the desire of Muslims to co-exist in peace with all peoples of the world.

We, the undersigned, Citizens and residents of Canada, call upon the House of Commons to join us in recognizing that extremist individuals do not represent the religion of Islam, and in condemning all forms of Islamophobia.

I want to tie all these pieces together, and you're absolutely right, where there is promotion of hate anywhere that is not I think the Canada we want to see.

To that end, in terms of a recommendation from the government, it was also suggested that we should separate out recommendations or actions from government on anti-racism as well as religious discrimination. Would you agree with that?

[Raheel Raza]

I think of what Father de Souza said, that racism is a separate issue. Yes, the government can have recommendations or motions about racism, but as far as religious discrimination is concerned, I think that the communities have to wake up and they have to start working on this themselves. What you read out to me, warm fuzzy stuff like this is wonderful, but it does not reflect the reality and is an actual deflection from the rise in terrorism and radicalization that is taking place across the Muslim world.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On the question around radicalization, government officials came to the committee and listed some items of what they've been doing. From that perspective, do you have specific recommendations that you think the government should embark on to address the issue of radicalization? How do we actually do that?

[Raheel Raza]

Yes, absolutely. My organization works on what we call the “three Es”, which are expose the problem, educate the masses, and then try to eliminate the problem. The clergy should be part of the solution, so we need to empower the clergy to work with youth and have programs in which these issues can be discussed. But then, of course, if you have a motion about Islamophobia, then you can't have open and honest discussion about these issues. So first of all—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Sorry, I'm just going to pause there, because the motion is not just about Islamophobia. I think it's really important that we not just say that this is about Islamophobia. In the motion, it says “condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination”.

[Raheel Raza]

True.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

So it's all forms. Islamophobia is one form, but it's not all the different forms. Also, on the issue around systemic discrimination, because in your presentation you talked about it in the context of, I think, Islamophobia, but from my perspective when we talk about systemic discrimination, a big focus for me is also the indigenous peoples and the systemic discrimination they have experienced. That's all to come, I hope, in the work ahead.

I just want to put that on the record, so there is not this continuing confusion around this, because the more we do that, the less we serve the goal we're trying to achieve, which is the common goal of needing to fight against discrimination in all forms, for everybody.