Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 18th, 2017

[Sikander Hashmi]

I really don't have an answer to that. I do think that so far the position of the federal government has been positive with regard to these types of issues. I would encourage it to continue forward in the same direction.

One thing I would say—and I know I'm speaking to MPs, politicians—there really is the power of words and the example that we set as leaders, especially as political leaders on the national stage. What you say and what you choose to talk about and how you say it has a tremendous impact on citizens and how they feel. It has a real impact on their lives.

Sure, there could be people who agree with what is happening in Quebec with regard to this law, and they may have certain issues and concerns to do with Muslims. You can talk about whatever you want, but just do it in a respectful, caring, compassionate manner, taking into account the potential implications of your words.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Bells have begun, and I need unanimous consent to continue. We're right next door. Would you like us to do the next few questions?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We'll go to Julie Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks again for your presentation and thanks for your patience in answering so many of our questions.

I'm seized with communications and how it is that we communicate around any type of anti-racism or anti-discrimination strategy that we might put into place. I have many ethnic groups in my community, and they speak many different languages. A chunk of them are online, and some of them are not. How they receive their information is so different.

Do you have any advice for us on how we could better communicate with them? Is there anything, such as social media, other than the regular ways? We do try to do it through the local media. We try to do it through the national media. We try to do the tweeting. Do you have any other advice for us?

[Tamara Thomas]

I feel as though a lot of these suggestions might seem repetitive, but I will say again that there really is benefit in dealing directly with community groups, because a lot of individuals, particularly recent immigrants but even individuals who have been here for several decades, are very tied to their community. There are a lot of cultural centres or community groups or community organizations that these individuals dedicate significant amounts of their time to. Through that you have the magic of word of mouth, so to speak.

I think working intimately and directly with those community groups, putting in the effort to try to identify who the community leaders are, where these people are going, how they are spending their time, and then reaching out to those cultural hubs, is one of the best ways to communicate information, even more so than social media.

[Sikander Hashmi]

Absolutely.

I'm sure ethnic media are avenues that are already being used, but there is the power of relationships. Getting to know communities, getting to know people within communities, and then employing those channels to disseminate information is one of the most powerful ways of ensuring that all communities and as many community members as possible are getting the message.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Someone had mentioned this. I think it was one of the other black legal lawyer leaders who came here. He said we all have biases. How do we account for that as part of the strategy we use as we move forward in teaching each other about our own biases? It's a tough question.

[Sikander Hashmi]

I would say that countering the stereotypes with stories and images is extremely powerful.

You're absolutely right. We all have preconceived notions and biases about others. It's hard and it takes effort to overcome them. I have to say if we look around the world, in my opinion, we find Canadians to be one of the best when it comes to dealing with that and recognizing that yes, we do have an issue that we have to overcome as individuals when we're battling with these stereotypes or biases.

In my view there's nothing more powerful than stories and images that show things that totally shatter stereotypes, because those are the types of things that people look at and say, “I always thought such and such group to be like this, but it appears maybe they're not. Maybe I was wrong.” That's how we get onto the path of self-reflection and exploration.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

I'll now go to Scott.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Ms. Thomas, we had some very interesting testimony earlier in our hearings about systemic racism against Canadians of African origin. The presentation suggested that it's primarily tied up in institutions, especially in the legal system. You mentioned a number of other areas. You enumerated a bullet-point list of about five areas, the first of which had to do with a great number of children being taken away from their parents. We won't be able to find that information on our own. If you could provide us with the sources you're citing, it would be enormously helpful.

Dealing a bit further with children being taken from their parents, this is obviously an area that struck a chord with me, because we Canadians are now seized in our collective memory with what's known as the “sixties scoop”, in which a version of this same problem occurred for aboriginal Canadians.

Could you comment a bit more on this particular problem and give us a bit more of a description? It's something I was completely unfamiliar with until you raised the matter.

[Tamara Thomas]

As to the first point, about the sources of the information, almost all of it is contained within the report we gave to CERD earlier this year, in which all of our sources are cited. When I forward this report, that information will be there and the links to those sources will be identified.

It's funny that you were able to make that link, because the taking of black youth from their families has also been identified. I can't remember at this moment who identified it, but it's the institutional assimilation of a culture. A lot times when these youth are taken from their families, they're not put in homes that are culturally related to them. Instead, they're removed from their culture completely. Then it becomes incumbent on those individuals who are taking care of the child to make an extra effort to try to create those links. You're removing an entire generation of children from their culture.

The increased removal stems from a couple of different places. There's a lack of cultural awareness by the people making these decisions. They're not aware, for example, of cultural foods. The Children's Aid Societies in Ontario have been called because a child brought cultural food to school. The teacher was not aware of what the food was and thought it wasn't adequate and called the Children's Aid Society on that parent. There's this lack of understanding of the differences between cultures, and those differences are often penalized.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Arif Virani for the Liberals, and then Ms. Kwan.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you for being here.

This is for both Imam Hashmi and for Ms. Thomas. We've heard that there used to be funding provided to communities to empower them in capacity-building. This allowed communities to do needs assessments among themselves and to understand how federal and provincial governments operate.

From your perspective, would this be useful in empowering communities to address some of their own needs in learning how to interface with governments?

[Tamara Thomas]

Are you saying the funding was for community groups to be able to develop an understanding within their own communities?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Yes. Let me flesh it out a bit. There's funding that presently exists for building dialogue between communities. Jamaicans speak to Ukrainians, for example. There was a time, however, when there was funding just for Jamaicans, just for Ukrainians, just for people from Barbados, just for people from Pakistan, and so on. It's the idea of capacity-building or community development, but it focuses on one community at a time.

[Tamara Thomas]

I think that would be a positive step to take. I don't know if it would be one at the expense of the other. I think dialogue between communities is also necessary, especially in the current climate that we're in. Allowing community groups to educate and develop capacity within themselves gives a sense of ownership. It also gives a sense of being able to understand how to address issues as a person on the street dealing with the everyday realities of being who you are and living in your skin or living with your faith. I think that kind of funding is necessary in order for us to take the steps we have to take.

[Sikander Hashmi]

My view of that would be—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have a minute.

[Sikander Hashmi]

My view of that would be that it would be very useful, because a lot of new communities, immigrant communities, really struggle with coming together and building capacity to come to a level where they're able to even access funding that may be available and to figure out how they're supposed to go about doing things. I think it would be very useful and very helpful.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Just very quickly, Imam Hashmi, could you comment on your comment about media, websites, and social media, specifically the rebel media, as a platform for some of the views that sometimes seem to be sowing division in Canada right now?

[Sikander Hashmi]

Clearly there are such websites and individuals who have exercised their right to free speech in a way that has been divisive and harmful. Is it hate speech? I don't know—I'm not a lawyer—but at the same time, clearly this is something that is growing, and it exists. It would be to our detriment not to pay attention to it and take action where warranted.