Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 27th, 2018

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thank you.

My first question is for Mr. Kim. You spoke about the challenge of funding and government funding and say that's what is out there now does not help museums fund themselves in the long run. What could government do other than funding museums directly themselves to help museums fund themselves for the long-term?

[Henry Kim]

I think there are many different ways that you can look at this. Again, from my own experience looking at how government funding works, one of the best ways is to look at funding which doesn't simply go on a project basis. It's funding that may carry on for three, four, five years, because that's what allows museums to start looking at resource mobilization and increasing their capacities. That, to me, is very important. I think that the project funding unfortunately gives you a nice kick. It allows you to get this program done, but it doesn't allow you to train people, to keep people as well. I think that's an important thing. A lot of project work is done by people who are brought in for a very short-term basis, and that's where I think extending the horizon for how funding works is absolutely essential.

I think also that the nature of government funding programs needs to be looked at very strongly. Right now, the federal government operates a very important fund which is the museums assistance program . Again, I think that's a very good program, but it may be something that needs significant revision. When you look at the opportunities there, they are quite limited. As a museum, we've looked at the MAP program many a time, but, in truth, it doesn't address the concerns or the needs that we're looking at. There are very few opportunities that fit within what we do because, from our point of view, that program is very much about travelling exhibitions. There's work that can be done in enhancing collections management, but our collections management is relatively simple. We have only 1,000 objects. I worry about museums that have hundreds of thousands of objects.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

That's so far.

[Henry Kim]

Exactly. I'd say that you have to look at the longer-term basis. I think that the current program itself needs some very significant rework because times have changed. When you look at these smaller museums, they require different sorts of funding opportunities. Of course, you're right, it would be wonderful to have a lot more funding out there, but in truth even with the programs that are there right now they have to be refocused.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Elsewhere in the cultural sector the federal government has a program that matches, up to a cap—it's an annual cap—contributions that are made to some parts of the cultural sector, to organizations, to foundations that are designed to support them in the long term. My understanding is that is not available to the museums sector. Is this something that should change?

[Henry Kim]

Absolutely. I have to say it's something that, as a museum, we've tracked over the years and have been very excited by the prospect that it may actually happen. It hasn't happened at this point. It's been primarily focused towards performing arts organizations, which, again, is wonderful. I think performing arts organizations need it. Museums do too, because if you can actually have a matching funds program for endowment, that makes a tremendous difference. Endowment fundraising is ultimately what museums require. If you looked at, studied the health of smaller museums in this country, the one thing you'd find is that funding basis, endowment funding for the long term, simply doesn't exist. The big players have been able to develop endowments but small museums have largely been deficient at this, and that is one of the areas that has to be opened up.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

For the Association of Nova Scotia Museums, within Nova Scotia there is this interesting model called the Nova Scotia Museum, which is, I gather, provincially operated. It's an association, too, because it's an umbrella of 28 different museums. We're going to hear from one of them later this session, the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic. Can you tell us a bit about that model, how it works, and the relationship between your organization—which, presumably, goes beyond that—and that Nova Scotia Museum?

[Anita Price]

I always describe the evolution of the Nova Scotia Museum as very organic. No one sat down at one point and created a plan, and built the Nova Scotia museum. It largely evolved over opportunistic things that happened over the decades, and eventually was built to 28 sites of varying types and sizes throughout the province.

Within the Nova Scotia Museum's 28, there are 13 sites that are actually operated indirectly by third party not-for-profits. You have larger sites like the Highland Village Museum in Iona, Cape Breton, which is operated by the not-for-profit society that manages that and does it on behalf of the province of Nova Scotia.

There are other sites that are seasonal for the province. Some are like the Wile Carding Mill in Bridgewater, is operated by the town of Bridgewater through the DesBrisay Museum, as a third party contract with the province of Nova Scotia.

We actually evaluated the Nova Scotia museum sites in 2017. I didn't include any of those statistics because the province hasn't released permission to me with that report to share those statistics. However, it is a very complicated set up that they have. Kim may speak to that. She operates one of the directly managed sites. Her staff are all provincial government employees, that's not the case for all of the other sites.

From my organization I provide training and other supports like the advisory service with the collections management system. That supports the activities, mostly of the indirectly managed sites, but they all participate in the training opportunities, conferences and such, that we offer.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Very quickly, do you think the Nova Scotia Museum model is a good model?

What are its advantages over being out there and just part of an association?

[Anita Price]

It was a way for the ambitions of different communities to receive provincial government funding support on an ongoing operational basis and to tell the Nova Scotian story.

It is a very complex organization, and it is actually going to be under review over the next couple of years, because they need to look at the manageability of that structure and its sustainability into the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Mr. Nantel, you have seven minutes.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank both of you for being here this morning.

Earlier, Mr. Kim answered Mr. Van Loan's question about endowment funds. Ms. Price, could you also talk about these funds? It seems to me that it might be relevant for small museums or small sites. An endowment fund would be practical, wouldn't it?

[Anita Price]

The Canadian Museums Association has been urging, for the last five or six years, the federal government to establish an endowment fund for Canadians supporting their museums, the idea being that it will match public donations from Canadians dollar for dollar with federal dollars. There's always been a quietly warm response from members of Parliament when they've been approached on the subject, but we've never seen any real traction.

The observation is that there are similar endowments in place for the arts, but museums are very specifically excluded from participating in those opportunities. I think nationally we do need to address that. We all speak about federal funding and the importance of federal funding, which can be linchpin funding, but the museums need to be able to stand on their own two feet as well, and things like endowment funds help them to do that.

When we were developing the museum evaluation program, and we were really talking to Nova Scotians about their understanding of standards and so forth, one of the things that really came forward to us was the absolute confidence of Nova Scotians—and I would suggest most Canadians—that their government dollars—municipal, provincial, and federal—are actually holding all of these institutions together. Canadians think their tax dollars are doing that job, and their tax dollars are not. We need a way to constructively address that situation. I think an endowment fund is a very positive way of doing that.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Absolutely. In the Montreal area, funds like these are all sent to the Foundation of Greater Montreal. They also make an extremely important social contribution by supporting community organizations, while preserving capital, because that's the very nature of things. So that kills two birds, even three, with one stone, which is outstanding.

You meant to talk about the social role of museums. Did you want to finish your answer?

[Anita Price]

Yes, we find that those institutions in the province that are actively involved in their communities, that are engaged in their communities, that have a broader relationship with their arts communities and with other cultural organizations are by far the strongest institutions for a variety of different reasons, but I think it speaks to their relevance, to their job in public service that's so very important for them to do.

We have been tasked by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to move forward on a number of the recommendations of the commission. There's willingness but very little capacity at this point to do those sorts of jobs in a meaningful way. There is an enormous job for Canada's museums to undertake in these sorts of important societal areas that some of us step our toes into. Others are established very specifically to address areas of our cultural life, and others are really struggling with how they step into that and move forward in real ways like addressing difficult knowledge.

Museums can be safe and respectful spaces for people to have discourse on any number of subjects that people can possibly dream up. It's an important job for us to do, very important.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Absolutely.

Madam Chair, how much time do I have left? Three minutes? Fantastic.

Mr. Kim, you currently have a temporary exhibition called The World of the Fatimids. Based on my experience of major museums, like the Museum of Fine Arts and the Musée d'art contemporain in Montreal, temporary exhibitions inspire the desire to go to the museum and see the permanent collection as well.

Do you expect to renew that consistently? There is no doubt about the great relevance of your museum's capacity for cultural mediation.

Many of us will be at the Canadian Screen Awards on Sunday, March 11th. If you and the organizers of this event are interested, we could organize a group visit on Monday. I do not know if your museum is closed on Mondays, but we could go in groups. It would be a great opportunity to see your work.

[Henry Kim]

There's absolutely no question that temporary exhibitions do help drive visitation. From our point of view as a museum, the renewal of our temporary exhibitions three or four times a year is crucial for renewing people's interest. That is part of what we do.

At the same time, I think we also find it very important to change the permanent collections. That's something that I think museums always find a challenge, because once you put up a permanent collection, that's kind of permanent, but in truth, that requires renewal, and it requires dialogue with communities to understand what should be changed, what people are looking at.

I think back to the whole question of the social roles of museums. One of the parts of museum practice that's changing nowadays is understanding what your stories and messages truly are. Museums can do that, and it's going to come through community engagement, not just the minds of curators. Those are the ones that I think will create the products that will get people through the door from a business point of view, and that, to me, is essential.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You're right. The National Gallery in Ottawa changed up its national collection and made it even more interesting from a mediation perspective, while the Canadian Museum of History decided to have temporary exhibitions that are somewhat questionable. In particular, I'm thinking of Hot Wheels. I am a fan of Hot Wheels, and I had them when I was little, but I find it a little curious.

Sometimes, temporary exhibitions can have somewhat strange effects. For example, the MAC exhibition in Montreal led many people to discover Leonard Cohen through the artistic interpretation of contemporary artists. It was fantastic.

I don't have any more questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you.

We'll now be going to Mr. Virani for seven minutes.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Kim, I'm going to address most of my questions to you. My riding is Parkdale—High Park. That's in a sort of downtown area of Toronto. I know about the Aga Khan Museum because I'm an Ismaili Canadian representative, and I'm very proud of it. I think it's fair to say that there's a bit of a buzz about the Aga Khan Museum. There's a buzz in the city. I would say that there's a buzz in the province, and probably there's a buzz right around the country. I would put that down to a few things. One is because of the actual grandeur of the space. I've had the occasion to be there many times, and it's not just the museum structure, it's the courtyard and the Ismaili Centre that's facing it as well. It's quite magnificent and striking, but I also think it's because of the quality of what's on offer. Lastly I think it's because, as you outlined in your opening comments, it's the first of its kind in North America.

I want to ask you three things. The first is, can you tell me about the vision of the Aga Khan in terms of placing, why the museum, why the museum in Canada, and a bit about that investment you mentioned at the outset in terms of capital cost, the personal investment that he made to make sure that this happened?

[Henry Kim]

I think that's one of the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We've lost the French interpretation.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I can repeat my question in French, if you like, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We're going to have to pause until it comes back on. We've been having some technical difficulties throughout the session, so bear with us.

[Henry Kim]

Yes, I think the story you've mentioned is very important. When it came to placing this museum anywhere in the world, His Highness the Aga Khan chose Canada. I think this is very important, because when it comes to the mission and mandate of this museum, we're here to explore diversity among cultures and how connections between cultures are made across time. That purpose is there in order for people to understand not only the Muslim world better, but to understand all the world better, because the cultural connections that happen between people are not unique. It happens all the time, but we tend to forget it. When it comes to this museum, our mandate is very much driven towards that. The reason for His Highness choosing Canada is that he looked at Canada as one of the most successful of multicultural and diverse societies.

I have to say from my point of view as a museum director that it's been absolutely magnificent coming to Canada and having this museum here, because I have never been asked why this museum exists. I haven't been challenged as to why there is a museum of Islamic art here. People actually say, “I want to learn more.” They're seeking what we're putting forward in the museum. Again, I think that's very much down to the vision the Aga Khan had when it came to developing this museum.