Canadian Heritage Committee on March 8th, 2021

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As Jean-Stéphen and Owen explained earlier on, we are keeping most of the infrastructure of the actual broadcasting legislation and regulation.

What we're doing with C-10, and I think why the bill has been saluted by so many, is we're keeping what's working and we're adding this whole other layer of elements where Canadian regulations will be able to be applied to online giants, like Spotify, Netflix, Amazon Prime and Apple Music.

To correct something Mr. Rayes said earlier, he said that we've been waiting for five years. Actually, we haven't. My predecessor commissioned a group of people who went across the country and received almost 2,000 position papers from different organizations. That concluded in the Yale report, which was tabled in early 2020. We then took that and started working on the bill, which was introduced a year later in the middle of the greatest pandemic we've seen in 100 years.

I don't think we've actually been losing a lot of time on this. We have acted very promptly to make this happen.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I appreciate that.

I have about a minute left, but I did want to clarify something that previous questions alluded to. There's been misinformation that somehow this would control, or regulate, or censor social media, and our previous witnesses expanded on that, but only if a social media company acts as a broadcaster itself.

Could you clarify that for the people who are saying we're out to censor social media?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Yes. It's clearly not what we're doing.

There's no censorship in Canadian broadcasting right now. There are different types of stations, different types of TV and radio stations that will have different angles on the political spectrum. This is totally normal in a democracy. What we're trying to do is apply that regulatory framework to online broadcasters.

In the case of YouTube, for example, we're not particularly interested in what people...you know, when my great-uncle posts pictures of his cats, that's not what we're interested in as a legislator.

When YouTube or Facebook act as a broadcaster, then the legislation would apply to them and the CRTC would define how that would happen. But really, we're not interested in user-generated content. We are interested in what broadcasters are doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I would like to return to your statement and your discussion with Mr. Rayes.

You were talking about the importance of expressing the diversity of Canadian voices, that is, the English and French voices, the voices of minority communities, and so on. This is indeed a concern that we all share. Yet it is addressed in an extremely vague way in the bill.

If this is indeed the intent of the bill, why didn't you make it more specific within the text of the legislation?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Champoux.

Do you find many provisions in the current act that have helped French carve out the place it has today on the small and big screen? The answer to that question is no. It is thanks to the regulations and the various decisions of the CRTC that we have succeeded in building an internationally renowned French-language industry in Canada. Today, our directors are sought after and highly coveted all over the world, especially in the United States. Yet there is little in the current act that defines the French fact or protects it.

Could amendments be made to the bill so that there is greater recognition of French? As I said before, if there is something that needs to be added to the bill, I am very much open to that possibility. However, it should be understood that the mechanics will be handled by regulation.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I would like to go back to what you just said about the current act. Even though the industry itself was completely different back then, it was already difficult for French to fit in. I'm talking about what I know best, which is the radio industry, in which I worked for several years. I saw the fight that the UDA, ADISQ and the organizations defending francophone artists had to wage before the CRTC to maintain a place in this universe.

Today, this universe has completely changed. Huge players have been added, including online broadcasters and foreign digital media. The rules of the game are not the same at all, and that's what concerns me.

In my view, it would be better to add much clearer provisions in the act and not rely solely on the CRTC to set the regulations.

What do you think?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I think you misunderstand the role of a regulator. Personally, I have never intervened with the CRTC, but I have intervened with many Quebec and federal energy regulators.

A regulator does not make its decisions according to the number of companies that lobby it for deregulation or for better regulation. That is not how a regulator works, not the Régie de l'énergie du Québec, not the Canada Energy Regulator, not the CRTC. Rather, it considers all of the positions submitted to it, in light of the law that governs its work.

In addition, through Bill C-10, the government is giving itself greater ability to give direction to the CRTC.

In light of all this, this is how the CRTC and all regulatory agencies make decisions.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Minister, with all due respect, I think it's a little naive to think that the CRTC won't be somewhat responsive to pressure; it always has been. They have people coming to them with their views. The Web giants are bound to have much more persuasive power than smaller organizations, which have fewer resources.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I don't share your opinion on this, but one opinion is as good as another.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

All right.

Some witnesses expressed concern about the lack of clarity on what Canadian content or francophone content we want to have. By the way, since we are talking about the CRTC, I would like to quote Ms. Messier, from the Association québécoise de la production médiatique:

Too often in the past, the CRTC has interpreted the recognition of linguistic duality as the provision of content in French, with no concern for whether the content consisted of programs translated from English, with subtitles or dubbing.

In the interest of protecting francophone culture in this extremely competitive universe, don't you think it would be appropriate to clarify exactly what is meant by original Canadian content or original francophone content?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

There is indeed a big difference between the two. Ms. Messier and you are absolutely right.

I have said it before and I will say it again: if amendments need to be made to the bill to clarify a number of things, I will be very much in favour of that.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I will move on to another topic, Minister.

A little less than two weeks ago, Mr. Richard Stursberg appeared before the committee. He suggested that the Canadian ownership or effective control test should be maintained for foreign broadcasting companies that are allowed to locate here and are subject to the same rules about producing and contributing to Canadian content in a fair manner. Without this criterion, foreign companies could eventually take over virtually the entire broadcasting industry in Canada.

What do you have to say to that? Do you agree with Mr. Stursberg?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

No, not at all. In fact, Mr. Ripley answered that question very well earlier, in the first hour of the meeting, when he said that it was not a law, but a directive. The CRTC has no authority over this issue. It's a government decision.

Could another government decide to change things? A government is always sovereign and free to make its own decisions. In any event, the CRTC cannot do that, and the act does not change that. The directive that is in place stays in place.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Fine.

I think my time is up.

Thank you, Minister.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Champoux.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much.

Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the minister for joining us today. I look forward to a time in the future when we can join in the same room, but this is going to have to suffice for now. It's nice that our technology worked today for this.

I want to ask a few questions about the CBC and funding for the CBC. Of course, the CBC is vitally important to many of my constituents and to many Canadians across the country.

In terms of the level of funding for our public broadcaster, on a per capita basis, do you know how Canada ranks amongst the 18 OECD countries?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I was under the impression that we were going to talk about Bill C-10 today, so most of the information I have with me is on issues relating to Bill C-10.

You may recall that our government made a record-level investment into the CBC in the previous mandate, after years of cutbacks under the Harper government.

I do not have that information offhand; I'm sure we could provide it to you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That would be great. Thank you.

I'm asking these questions, because of course having the opportunity to speak to you opens up a whole bunch of questions that I have.

One of the follow-ups on that is, how many of the recommendations from the Yale report on strengthening the role of CBC and Radio-Canada have you implemented so far?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I've been clear from the beginning. Bill C-10 won't fix everything when it comes to looking at broadcasting generally defined. It doesn't address issues related to the CBC.

We are a minority government. We took those elements of the Yale report that we felt were the most crucial to implement. As I've said before, there are a number of other recommendations coming out of the Yale report that we would like to move forward with. We just can't do everything at once. If I presented the House and this committee with a bill that encompassed everything under the sun, I sincerely doubt we would ever be able to get the bill through.

I do think we can get Bill C-10 adopted. It won't solve everything, but it will solve an important part of the equation. My government believes in the Canadian broadcaster. We have made significant investments in the Canadian broadcaster, and I want to ensure a healthy future for our Canadian broadcaster.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

As do I, of course, Minister.

Just to let you know, Canada does spend approximately $29 on public broadcasting, whereas we know that in the United Kingdom, they spend $105. They spend $73 in France. I would encourage you to take a leadership position to ensure that our CBC is adequately funded going forward. Of course, you have the support the NDP to do that work.

The next question I have for you is in terms of online advertising among web giants. We did have an opportunity to discuss this with your colleagues in the first hour.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Yes, I was listening.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

For the years 2018 and 2019, how much did the federal government spend on online advertising compared with digital media? Do you have an answer for that? I know they were going to provide something from their perspective, but I'd love to ask you that as well.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I'm going to give you the same answer that Jean-Stéphen gave you earlier. We don't have these numbers offhand. We would be happy to provide them.

If you will allow me, what I would add is that there's a trend in this country, which started before our government, with the previous government, of putting more and more money in terms of publicity into online platforms. This is something we have started to change. You won't see it before next year. We have started to change the investment we make in publicity away from online platforms.

I agree. We've done too much investment in online platforms, and we need to change this.