Canadian Heritage Committee on May 17th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I call the meeting to order.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back.

This is our 34th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

We are in the midst of doing clause-by-clause study of Bill C-10. As you know, of course, we took a little bit of a break to go on to other activities, including a motion that was passed to allow guests to come in and to also receive a document from the Department of Justice.

We also passed a motion to invite the Minister of Justice. Once again, I'd like to bring to everybody's attention—you probably know by now, through social media—that we did receive confirmation that Mr. Lametti will attend the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage tomorrow, May 18, at 2:30 p.m. Eastern Time, for one hour, alongside the deputy minister and the other officials who were present last Friday.

Minister Guilbeault will also be attending. We didn't extend the invitation to him, but I didn't think you would mind if he tagged along and was involved in the proceedings as well. Nevertheless, if you do have a problem with that, you can simply not ask him a question, I guess. Perhaps that's how it goes.

That's for tomorrow. As you've just read, he's coming in for an hour. I want you to think about this for just a few moments, and we can discuss this later. Both ministers will be in, and we have what was required from the Department of Justice, so once that is complete, we can start clause-by-clause study again right afterward. That could be as soon as the second hour tomorrow or on Wednesday, as we have another meeting then. I will let you think about that for a while, and we can discuss it again later.

That said, the other part of the motion was to invite an expert panel, the membership to be based on suggestions from each of the parties represented officially on the Standing Committee of Canadian Heritage.

We have, suggested from the Liberal caucus, Ms. Janet Yale. If you remember, she is from the Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel. She is the chair of it.

Welcome, Ms. Yale.

Also, from the Conservatives, we're welcoming back Dr. Michael Geist, who is the Canada research chair in Internet and e-commerce law in the faculty of law at the University of Ottawa.

From the Bloc Québécois, we have Mr. Pierre Trudel, professor, public law research centre at the Université de Montréal.

Welcome back as well.

Finally, from the NDP, from the Canadian Independent Music Association and by no means a stranger to this committee, as he was a former member of this committee not too long ago—I was sitting next to him, and I don't want to give my age as well as his—we welcome the president and chief executive officer, Andrew Cash.

You know how this goes. We're going to start this right away. We're not going to break; we're going to do a full two hours, if you wish. There will be lots of time for questioning, but I assume everybody's going to want a bio-break in there somewhere. With your permission, I will find a spot in approximately one hour from now to take that break, and then we'll come back to resume.

Let us first start out with Ms. Yale. Of course, these are opening remarks. You can go up to five minutes, but we ask that you not go beyond five minutes for the sake of our committee.

Ms. Yale, the floor is yours.

[Janet Yale, Chair, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for the invitation to be here today. My panel colleague Pierre Trudel and I are very pleased to provide our perspective on Bill C-10.

We endorse the federal government's efforts to update the legislative framework governing the broadcasting system to include both media streaming services and sharing platforms. This approach is consistent with our report, which recognized the realities of a borderless online world in which Canadians will seek to access media content based on personal interest, irrespective of platform or technology.

Bill C-10 would ensure that these new online streaming services, including Netflix, Disney+ and Amazon Prime, as well as sharing platforms like YouTube, are required to make an appropriate contribution to Canadian cultural content. These online services derive significant revenues from Canadian audiences from both advertising and subscription revenues, yet face no obligation to contribute. To imagine that in 2021 we would permit these platforms to make money from Canadian audiences, Canadian consumers and Canadian creativity without any corresponding contribution defies logic, particularly when our system imposes obligations on traditional broadcasters that are now much smaller, less powerful and less prosperous.

In our report, we recommended, as a matter of competitive fairness, that online undertakings be included in updated broadcasting legislation. Our report also made it clear that these regulatory obligations should be restricted to the platforms—that is, if we use the language of the law, to undertakings. Individual creators should remain untouched by regulation, and that is exactly what Bill C-10 proposes.

Let me say it again: Bill C-10 imposes regulatory burdens and the obligation to contribute to Canada's creators only on the undertakings such as the big streaming and sharing platforms, not on individual creators.

I will put it another way. Programs consist of audio and audiovisual content. TV shows, songs, podcasts, postings and that programming—all those programs—exist beyond regulation and will remain beyond regulation. Individuals who create content, whether amateur or professional, and audiences large and small are not affected by Bill C-10 when they upload their programming, share it or even sell it to a streaming service. No one is going to police that content, tell them what they can say or compel them to pay dues.

What Bill C-10 does require—and, from my perspective, thank goodness we are finally taking this step—is that the undertakings—the YouTubes, Disney-pluses and Netflixes of the world that share that content and make money from distributing content—must operate by a set of rules and contribute some amount of the revenues they are harvesting from Canadians to the production of Canadian content.

Finally, to those who argue that Bill C-10 fails to protect user-generated content, we say that is just wrong. Proposed section 2.1 specifically provides that exemption already. New amendments that have been tabled make this exclusion even clearer. Therefore, to persist in creating this illusory scare against freedom of expression is either to misunderstand the legislation, in my view, or to intentionally seek to mislead people for some other purpose.

I will finish by saying this: Legislation, of course, is complex, and broadcasting policy and its regulation can be very technical. Devils do lurk in details, and that is why the scrutiny of this committee is so important. However, what's at stake here isn't hard to understand: We need to make provision for the reality of these immense and hugely powerful online platforms. We need to ensure that they give to, not just take from, Canadian creators and Canadian audiences. We need to update a broadcasting framework that was last amended before the world was even online. We need what is set out in Bill C-10, with all its provisions and all its protections. We urge the government to pass this legislation as quickly as possible.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

Dr. Geist, you have five minutes, please.

[Dr. Michael Geist, Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As you know, my name is Michael Geist. I appear in a personal capacity, representing only my own views. I always start with that statement, but it feels particularly necessary in this instance, given the misinformation and conspiracy theories that some have floated and that Minister Guilbeault has disappointingly retweeted.

As I am sure you are aware, I have been quite critical of Bill C-10. I would like to reiterate that criticism of the bill is not criticism of public support for culture or of regulation of technology companies. I think public support for culture is needed, and I think there are ways to ensure money for creator programs this year and not in five years, as in this bill.

Further, I am puzzled and discouraged by the lack of interest in Bill C-11, which would move toward modernizing Canada’s privacy rules to help address concerns about how these companies collect and use our data. The bill would also mandate algorithmic transparency, which is much needed and far different from government-mandated algorithmic outcomes.

I’ll confine my opening remarks to the charter-related questions and widespread concerns about the regulation of user-generated content, but would welcome questions on any aspect of the bill.

There is simply no debating that following the removal of proposed section 4.1, the bill now applies to user-generated content, since all audiovisual content is treated as a program under the act. You have heard experts say that and department officials say that. The attempts to deflect from that simple reality by pointing to proposed section 2.1 to argue that users are not regulated is deceptive and does not speak to the issue of regulating the content of users.

I will speak to the freedom of expression implications in a moment, but I want to pause to note that no one, literally no other country, uses broadcast regulation to regulate user-generated content in this way. There are good reasons that all other countries reject this approach. It is not that they don’t love their creators and want to avoid regulating Internet companies; it is that regulating user-generated content in this manner is entirely unworkable, a risk to net neutrality and a threat to freedom of expression. For example, the European Union, which is not shy about regulation, distinguishes between streaming services such as Netflix and video-sharing services such as TikTok or YouTube, with no equivalent regulations such as those found in Bill C-10 for user-generated content.

From a charter perspective, the statement issued by the Department of Justice last week simply does not contain analysis or discussion about how the regulation of user-generated content as a program intersects with the charter. There is similarly no discussion about whether this might constitute a violation that could be justified, no discussion on the implications of deprioritizing speech, no discussion on the use of terms such as “social media service” that are not even defined in the bill, and no discussion of the implementation issues that could require Canadians to disclose personal location-based information in order to comply with the new, ill-defined requirements.

In my view, the prioritization or deprioritization of speech by the government through the CRTC necessarily implicates freedom of expression. The charter statement should have acknowledged this reality and grappled with the question of whether it is saved by section 1. I do not believe it is.

First, the bill as drafted, with section 4.1 in it, was the attempt to minimally impair those speech rights. With it removed, the bill no longer does so.

Second, the discoverability policy objective is not enough to save the impairment of free speech rights. There is no evidence that there is a discoverability problem with user-generated content.

Ms. Yale’s panel, which notably appears to have lost its unanimity, recommended discoverability but cited no relevant evidence to support claims that there is an issue with user-generated content.

Third, the objective of making YouTube pay some additional amount to support music creation is not enough to save the impairment of free speech rights either. This isn’t about compensation, because the works are already licensed. This is about paying some additional fees, given concerns that section 4.1 would have broadly exempted YouTube. I am not convinced that was the case, as services such as YouTube Music Premium might well have been captured. I am not alone on that. Canadian Heritage officials thought so too in a memo they wrote to the minister. In fact, it was such a non-issue that Mr. Cash’s organization did not even specifically cite the provision or raise the issue in the brief that it submitted to this committee.

I find it remarkable that the minister and the charter statement effectively tell Canadians that they should trust the CRTC to appropriately address free speech rights but are unwilling to do the same with respect to how section 4.1 would be interpreted.

Let me conclude by noting that if a choice must be made between some additional payments by a streaming service and regulating the free speech rights of Canadians, I would have thought that standing behind freedom of expression would be an easy choice to make, and I have been genuinely shaken to find that my government thinks otherwise.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Dr. Geist.

Mr. Trudel, you have the floor for the next five minutes.

[Pierre Trudel, Professor, Public Law Research Centre, Université de Montréal, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, good afternoon.

I'm a law professor, and I've been teaching the Broadcasting Act since 1979. I was the research director of the Caplan-Sauvageau committee, which produced the 1991 Broadcasting Act. As my colleague Janet Yale pointed out, I was involved in the work of the Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel.

As noted in the notice from the Department of Justice, which was tabled a few days ago, Bill C-10, amends the Broadcasting Act, which does not authorize measures to be taken against individuals with respect to the content they create and decide to put online. Above all, the act already clearly provides that all measures put in place to regulate broadcasting activities must respect freedom of expression.

Moreover, the Broadcasting Act has never authorized the CRTC to censor specific content. The CRTC's entire practice over the past 50 years is a testament to that. Furthermore, the Broadcasting Act requires that the CRTC refrain from regulating broadcasting in a manner that violates freedom of expression. It's hard to imagine a broader exclusion than that. It is an exclusion that requires a prohibition on interpreting the act in a way that empowers the CRTC to take action and create regulations or orders that violate freedom of expression.

In addition, as you know, the act provides that the CRTC shall refrain from regulating any activity that does not have a demonstrable impact on the achievement of Canadian broadcasting policy. In fact, the Broadcasting Act is enabling legislation. There are no specifics in the act. It is enabling legislation that empowers the CRTC to put in place rules adapted to the circumstances of each company so that they organize their activities in a way that contributes to the achievement of Canadian broadcasting policy objectives, as set out in section 3 of the act.

Therefore, Bill C-10 does not need to expand exclusions for any type of content. Rather, it is a recognition that Bill C-10 already excludes measures that could be suspected of infringing on freedom of expression and ensures that the Broadcasting Act applies to all companies that transmit programming, including on the Internet, which is the primary purpose of Bill C-10.

With regard to these online companies that determine content and that, it's important to remember, already regulate content that is offered to individuals through processes based on algorithms or artificial intelligence technologies, Bill C-10 strengthens the guarantees of fundamental rights for all Canadians. It empowers the CRTC to compel companies to provide information on the logic behind these algorithmic devices, which does not currently exist. It enables the CRTC to put measures in place to ensure that Canadians are offered programming that reflects the principles, values and objectives set out in section 3 of the Broadcasting Act.

Nothing in the Broadcasting Act as it is proposed to be amended would allow the CRTC to impose on anyone programs that they do not want to hear or see, let alone allow the CRTC to censor content on platforms.

Rather, the act provides individuals with a real opportunity for choice. There is currently no guarantee that online companies are offering Canadians a real and meaningful choice that reflects Canadian values as codified in the Broadcasting Act.

There has been a constant since the early years of radio, and that is a tension between those who believe that broadcasting undertakings should be left to market forces alone and those who—rightly, in my view—believe that intervention is required to ensure the effective availability of programming that is the product of Canadians' creative activity.

Bill C-10 is part of this continuum, which has allowed Canadians to have media that offers the best the world has to offer, while also giving prominence to the works of Canadian creators, including creators from minority and indigenous or first nations communities.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

Mr. Cash, you have five minutes, please.

[Andrew Cash, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Music Association]

Mr. Chair, honourable members of the committee and fellow panellists, good afternoon.

My name is Andrew Cash, and I'm the president and CEO of the Canadian Independent Music Association. It is a pleasure to be back at committee.

Let's start by getting one thing off the table. Digital platforms like Netflix, Spotify and YouTube are incredible. They represent phenomenal opportunities for Canadian arts and culture creators.

It's been said that being in the music business is a great way to get rich and a lousy way to make a living. The pandemic has put this maxim in stark focus. Many artists and musicians lived below the poverty line before the pandemic, but the pandemic has made things much, much worse. Travel and gathering restrictions have meant no touring, no live shows and no income at all.

The pandemic has also underlined the systemic inequities in the market that have led to diminished compensation for creators. This imbalance has put the promise of a stable middle-class sector of artists and arts and culture workers further and further out of reach for this country. The sector is in crisis.

CIMA commissioned Nordicity to do a report on the impact of COVID. It found that the independent music sector saw a drop in revenue of $233 million, live music saw a drop in income of 79%, independent sound recording and publishing companies saw a 41% decline in revenue, and thousands of jobs were lost. That was just in the first nine months of the pandemic.

We don't expect to return to pre-COVID levels of revenue until 2023 or 2024 at best, but as we move towards recovery, we must address the elephant in the room: Digital giants doing business in Canada make lots of money off Canadians but pay fractions of a cent to content creators, and they operate here without any accountability or regulatory obligations, including to fairly contribute to the arts and culture ecosystem.

Really? Are we okay with this?

Given the numbers that I've laid out before you today, if there ever were a time when we needed you to stand up for the little guy, it's right now. Do you really want to go back to your ridings and say to your constituents, “Yes, I voted to protect big tech. I voted to allow them to continue raking in the profits, taking profits out of the country and not contributing a dime in return.”? Unless things have dramatically changed since I was an elected politician, I don't think you want to be doing that. In fact, many of you, from all parties, have pointed out that this inequitable playing field is wrong and that we have to do something about it.

CanCon regulations were created 50 years ago and helped establish a domestic industry within a domestic market. We wanted to protect and nurture French-language creators who were surrounded on all sides by English-language cultural content and English-language creators who were competing on all sides with the massive giant next door. Well, today our arts and culture marketplace is no longer a domestic one. Digital platforms have transformed the way content is consumed. Today the marketplace is global. Today we need a modernized system to grow our domestic industry into one that will thrive in the global market.

This bill, flawed though it is, could point us towards new modes of discoverability, towards new investments in our artists and our arts and culture entrepreneurs, and towards information transparency and accountability from big tech companies that simply doesn't exist right now.

CIMA believes that the bill as amended did not infringe on individuals' rights and freedoms. That belief was affirmed by last week's charter statement and further proposed amendments. However, let's be clear: We would oppose any measure that puts those rights at risk. Artists have long been at the forefront of fighting for civil liberties and freedom of expression against monolithic power structures. Our work quite literally depends on civil liberty and the protection of freedom of expression.

Bill C-10 couldn't [Technical difficulty—Editor] bad videos. What it could do, though, is begin to make a real difference in the lives of musicians, content creators, entrepreneurs and [Technical difficulty—Editor] across the country. It has the potential to move the creative sector from precarity towards middle-class stability, unlocking innovation and creating a global presence for the sector.

That's why I implore you today to continue your work in amending Bill C-10 as expediently as possible in order to pass it through Parliament before the end of the spring session.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Cash.

I have just a couple of housekeeping items, folks. Dr. Geist, we had some popping on your microphone. Could you put the microphone between your nose and your mouth?

That's it. You've got it right there.

There is one other thing. I also want to welcome Mr. Manly. Mr. Manly from the Green Party is here with us today. If you're watching from afar, our four political parties are permanent members on this committee. Mr. Manly is from the Green Party. The rules state that the Green Party is not an officially recognized party, but members can take part by asking questions, getting involved in debate or proposing amendments. They can't vote on them or move motions of that nature, but they can participate.

That said, Mr. Manly—and I'm sure my committee will agree—has been quite active thus far on amendments. For that reason, as part of the chair's discretion, Mr. Manly, I'm going to put you in as number five on the first round. I'm going to give you between three and five minutes. I'll give you a rough number. After that, I'm afraid you'll have to turn to some of your colleagues to get more time than that. I'll put it at the end of the first round. We'll go from Ms. McPherson to you, and I'll give you between three and five minutes on that round.

Off we go, folks.

To start with, I have two names: Ms. Harder and Mr. Waugh. Do you want to share three minutes each, or Ms. Harder, would you like to start and then throw it to Mr. Waugh when you're ready?

We'll go with the latter.

Ms. Harder, you have six minutes at your discretion.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Awesome. Thank you so much, Chair.

My question is for Dr. Geist.

Ms. Yale, the minister and all of the other witnesses on this panel today have tried to make the claim that our freedom of speech is not being attacked by this bill. In fact, they claim that it's not even impacted, and that somehow content can be moved up or down in the queue without impacting other content. It would be my observation that in order for some information to be bumped up and made more discoverable, other information must be bumped down. I just don't see how it's possible for that not to be the case. When that is the case, it means that there's a mechanism being used to regulate and curate what I can and cannot see, which then would be a form of censorship.

Mr. Geist, I'm wondering if you can comment or elaborate on this further.

[Dr. Michael Geist]

I think you've highlighted what is the nub for so many experts that have spoken out on this issue.

First off, let's be clear: User-generated content, when we are speaking of the content, is regulated. It's absurd to simply suggest that you're exempted or the CRTC is bound by some other policy objectives. We are putting it into the basket of regulation. We would never dream of saying the CRTC would or should regulate things like our own letters or our blog posts, but this is a core expression for millions of Canadians, and we are saying that it is treated as a program like any other, and subject to regulation. That's number one.

When you layer on top of that—as the Liberals' proposed amendment does—discoverability requirements, what you are saying is that the government, through its regulator, gets to determine what gets prioritized. It is not about any specific piece of content per se, but it's going to make choices, elevating some and deprioritizing others. That clearly has an impact on individual Canadians' expressive rights. It's doing so in an environment that frankly is completely unworkable, when you think about this from a user-generated content perspective. The notion that somehow this increases choice at a time when there is unlimited choice for user-generated content is frankly just absurd.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

I'll give the rest of my time to Kevin Waugh.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you.

I'm going to continue with Dr. Geist.

I was at the original news conference on the Yale report. The chair had talked about levelling the playing field. We've often heard for the last several months about levelling the playing field. You say that's not the case.

Maybe you could just talk about that. “Level the playing field” is an expression that this government has used since it introduced this bill in November.

[Dr. Michael Geist]

It does. Ms. Yale often talks about like for like, as if we need to treat all of these players in the same fashion.

What we ought to recognize is that the existing broadcast sector enjoys a whole series of regulatory advantages, worth hundreds of millions of dollars, that are not available to streaming services. It's things like simultaneous substitution, whereby they substitute out commercials worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It's the must-carry rule so that you have to carry certain channels, which are otherwise unavailable. It's foreign investment and ownership restrictions. There are a whole series of measures that actually don't make this like for like.

Now listen: That's not to suggest that there ought not to be a regulatory environment for online undertakings. What I would say, though, is that trying to treat them in the same fashion as this bill does has rendered it fundamentally flawed, and this committee ought to know it better than anyone. It has had witness after witness say they're concerned about things like changing Canadian ownership requirements, changing the prioritization of performers, changing Canadian intellectual property, and all of that is a function of trying to treat online in precisely the same fashion as conventional broadcasters.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

You have been pretty vocal on Twitter and other social media about this. You've said to scrap this bill and start over. Others on this committee want this bill to proceed.

It's been 30-plus years now since we've updated the Broadcasting Act. We all realize that this act has to be modified at some point. Could you talk about scrapping it and what you would put in there instead of what we have in front of us today?

[Dr. Michael Geist]

Sure.

I would start by noting that I think we've seen the flaws. Even Mr. Cash acknowledged that it's a flawed piece of legislation, and we now have the government contradicting its own departmental officials again and again on things that were directly included in government memos from the heritage department to the minister with advice on some of these issues.

It's a flawed piece of legislation. The concerns are real and legitimate, raised by an incredible number of people, including people who have been some of the biggest critics of tech companies in the country.

I would suggest that we need to get this right, because we don't change our legislation that frequently. Clearly, it runs sometimes for decades. At the same time, we need to ensure that there is money for creators for precisely the kinds of reasons Mr. Cash identified.

What I would say is that the starting point is tax dollars. The government has already announced it wants to increase the taxes on tech companies. It should take some of that tax money and allocate it directly to the various creator programs. In doing so, there could be money this year, at a time when there really is that need for money, as opposed to the way it will play out with this bill. It is undoubtedly going to take years before the CRTC finishes with the litigation that is inevitable to ensue. Nobody is going to see a dime coming out of this legislation for years. There's a mechanism both to get the legislation right and to ensure that creators get money and get it quickly.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I must have a few seconds left.

There is an open letter, I see, to the Prime Minister.

Mr. Chair, do I still have 30 seconds left, or am I done?

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I'll let you ask your question very quickly.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

There is an open letter about Canadian Internet policy, and technical professionals put it out. It's about the future of free and open Internet. Could you comment on that? It's a letter sent to the Prime Minister today.

[Dr. Michael Geist]

It is, and I'm proud to have signed that letter.

I think one of the most shameful aspects of this debate over the last few weeks has been the continual attempt to suggest that somehow it's just people who are speaking on behalf of tech companies or who aren't critical or who don't want to see any Internet regulation who have concerns over Bill C-10.

That letter has been signed by some of the fiercest critics and biggest experts around tech policy, including Ron Deibert, Bianca Wylie, Nasma Ahmed and Lex Gill. These are people Canadians have learned to trust, people who have expressed real concerns about the tech companies. They've look at Bill C-10 and they've looked at government policy around the Internet and said that they're very concerned about the direction we're headed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Dr. Geist. I appreciate that.

Now, folks, there's one thing I want to point out. In a normal setting, when we're all together, sometimes our witnesses would like to be recognized to say something.

I notice Ms. Yale has her hand up virtually, and she wishes to discuss that; however, I have to say that when we give the members of the committee the full six minutes, it is theirs alone. I only ask that colleagues be cognizant if someone may have their hand up or not. You don't have to go to that person, but just know that they will be recognized. Once that colleague stops asking questions, we're going to lower the hands, and then we'll start again.

That being said, we now go to Ms. Dabrusin for six minutes, please.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In fact, I noticed that Janet Yale had her hand up and seemed to want to respond to some of the aspects that were touched upon by Dr. Geist on discoverability and the like.

Perhaps we could start there, with your ability to respond.

[Janet Yale]

Thank you very much. I want to make just two or three quick points.

The first is that programs aren't regulated; undertakings are. When Dr. Geist says that if it's a program, it's regulated, it's not a program unless it's offered by an undertaking. Online undertakings are the only ones that are subject to regulation. It's not people who make programs. It's really that clear. Point number one is that a program isn't regulated; only an undertaking is regulated, whether it's a streaming platform or a social media platform.

Secondly, on discoverability, the way Dr. Geist described it would have you think that the algorithms that are operated by the likes of Amazon and Netflix are just mathematically pure, uncontaminated by commercial considerations, and that everything you see is driven completely in an agnostic way by consumer preferences. Well, I can tell you personally that when I've bought things on Amazon or I've chosen a show on Netflix, before I know it, I have pushed to me all kinds of things that have nothing to do with my preferences or taste but everything to do with the things that the provider in question is trying to push.

Once we acknowledge that algorithms are not agnostic, then it's really a question of whether cultural policy has a role to play in a world of so many choices and unlimited amounts of content in ensuring that we know what Canadian choices might be available. That's just the simple principle of discoverability, and it's not about interfering with freedom of choice. It's about promotion of Canadian choices. Nobody has to watch it if they don't want to watch it. There are actually no restrictions on freedom of choice whatsoever.

Those would be my thoughts, but I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thanks.

I'd like to give Professor Trudel time to add something to what Dr. Geist said.

[Pierre Trudel]

It is essential to understand that the algorithms used to direct the flow of content on the Internet are not neutral. These are default regulations, default rules. At the moment, there is absolutely no guarantee that these default regulations, which are based solely on the commercial choices of commercial enterprises, do not involve biases or possible violations of fundamental rights. If we want to get into the area of conjecture, we must also take that into account.

At present, Canadians have no guarantee that their choices are not being directed in the same undemocratic way that they could possibly be if the multiple scenarios that have been discussed were to become reality. If the CRTC ever decides to violate the Broadcasting Act by imposing regulations that contravene the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, our freedoms would be at risk. This is a very distant possibility.

Right now, there are some very real contingencies. The practices of the companies that dominate the online platforms in a monopolistic way can, with impunity, without anyone looking at them, infringe on our fundamental rights. That is the real issue with respect to fundamental rights. It is in this sense that Bill C-10 would strengthen the protection of our fundamental rights.

Unfortunately, there is no protection on the Internet at the moment. Our rights aren't protected. Our rights to access content relevant to us and our rights not to be spied on when we make choices aren't guaranteed. Government regulations can guarantee them.