Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We will vote now on the motion as amended, please.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The motion as amended is unanimously passed by the committee. Thank you.

Now I would like us to go back to—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I thought you just adjourned, Madam Chair. You used the gavel. I took that as adjourning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I know. I'm sorry. I was just so anxious to get back to the witnesses. We have 10 more minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Chair, I'm very sorry. As you know, I have a bunch of hats, and I have another committee to run to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I know. Can you not wait for another two minutes? You're up next for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I realize that. That's why I asked Mr. Champoux to speak later. Unfortunately, he is....

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Do you not have two and a half minutes, Mr. Julian?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I need to leave. I would ask to adjourn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Is there any opposition to adjourning?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Yes, Madam Chair. We have until 10:22 a.m. You stated that earlier. We would not be able to move for adjournment without unanimous consent before that time. I would ask that we use the last two minutes wisely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

We will continue with the witnesses.

The next person up for questioning would have been—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

No, Madam Chair, I'm not giving away my time. I have to stay here as long as you're not adjourned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right, Mr. Julian. You have two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Peinert and Mr. Speer, now that they're aware of the over $1 billion the federal government provides in indirect subsidies. Basically, we subsidize advertisers to advertise on Meta and Google.

Does either of you, starting with Mr. Peinert, given your testimony on the importance of fact-based journalism, feel it's a good idea for Canada to continue to subsidize Meta and Google to such a massive extent?

[Dr. Erik Peinert]

No, I do not think that is necessary or a good idea, given the scale and profitability of this company—of either of these platforms, in fact.

[Sean Speer]

I'm afraid I don't know enough to answer. It may be that there's a case that it's the best means of reaching Canadians with information that the Government of Canada wants to communicate, in which case the trade-off there might make it worth continuing to use those platforms to reach Canadians in the same way that The Hub and others want to reach Canadians.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I would like to move on to Madam Benavidez.

I appreciated your comments about algorithm transparency. This is something that has come up in the U.S. Congress and in Canada. I have a private member's bill, Bill C-292, which would force algorithm transparency for platforms. Senator Ed Markey in the U.S. Congress is presenting similar legislation. In fact, his legislation inspired our legislation here.

The platforms are opposed, because the possibility of liability, once those algorithms are exposed, is something that they're concerned about. They're concerned they might be liable for the kinds of algorithms, the “malgorithms”, they're promoting that have led to so many incidents of violence.

What is your feeling on algorithm transparency in legislation? Do you feel it's important that legislators move forward with this type of legislation?

[Nora Benavidez]

It's incredibly important that you move forward with this legislation. Free Press Action endorses Senator Markey's legislation. We just met with him yesterday regarding the algorithmic justice and online platform transparency act. Companies often will acquiesce under threat of regulation. We need a first step of understanding what they are doing with their business models, their moderation practices and more.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Peter. You had four seconds left. That's good.

I will now go to Mr. Shields for the Conservatives—

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Madam Chair, I think we're way past our time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We have two minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

It's 25 minutes after.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Oh. It's 25 after. I can't see the clock very well from here. I'm sorry.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I would move a motion to adjourn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Is there any objection to the motion to adjourn? No?

Then this committee is adjourned, and I want to thank the witnesses for coming and listening to us debate a motion on the floor.