Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Do you have another question, Mr. Coteau, or are you ceding your time?

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Chair, I don't think he heard that he has two minutes left.

You still have two minutes, Michael.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I heard 12 seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

No. I said two minutes and 12 seconds. I'm sorry, Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay. I'll keep my time. Thank you very much.

Just to follow up with Mr. Trudel, I'm a supporter of a public broadcaster. I think having a public broadcaster, in any country, that is there for the common good is a good thing. I think it was Prime Minister Bennett who established the CBC in its modern structure. Probably the best thing the Conservatives ever did was create the CBC. It's a fantastic organization.

In this world of the Internet, by working with other countries to look for ways to collaborate and strengthen our support for good news, how does a public broadcaster fit into that collaboration? I'm assuming there are countries that just don't have a public broadcaster.

How does that fit into the mix?

[Pierre Trudel]

Basically, we need to find innovative ways to reinvent public service. Everywhere in the world, the same question needs to be asked: how, today, can we design a public news service that is relevant and that meets the population's needs

Services for the public have to be reinvented. Canadians get more and more of their news on the Internet via online platforms. This has to be taken into account. Public broadcasters, like others, need to learn how to work co-operatively. They are already doing so, but they have to learn to do more of their work in co-operation with others to take into account the fact that from now on, we are living in a world where national borders are becoming less and less important.

It strikes me that that public services are more essential than ever, because they are often the main vehicle through which minorities, including indigenous peoples, have access to services. From that standpoint, co-operation needs to be ramped up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Trudel. The time is up.

I'm going to Martin Champoux for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

With your permission, Madam Chair, I'd like to trade places with Mr. Julian.

I would then take his turn in the next round of questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'd like to go to Dr. Radsch.

In your testimony, you were very clear about the impact of big tech. You referenced the issue at Harvard, where a donation was made very controversially. There was the shutdown of a disinformation program that was critical of big tech.

To what extent are we going to continue to see these things until the government takes action?

I want to ask you specifically about the $1 billion that is handed out to Meta and Google every year in indirect subsidies from the federal government. Do you believe it's appropriate that the Canadian government heavily subsidizes Meta at a time when Meta is fostering such online hate?

[Dr. Courtney Radsch]

Through the chair, I would respond that I think we have seen quite a lot of retaliation against independent researchers and attempts to influence academic research.

It is very difficult to even gain access to the data needed to do much of the research, for example, on disinformation flows online. The platforms have a very dangerous hold on our ability to understand our information ecosystem, how information and communication circulate online, and, of course how harassment plays out as well. That is very concerning, and I think we're only going to see more of this, especially with generative AI, whereby access to the massive data models and the computational power needed to do this research mean that it's often only researchers who have some sort of link with a major tech company who are able to conduct the research or gain access to it.

The Digital Services Act provides independent researcher access, but that's only for researchers in Europe. I think that is a danger.

I am quite shocked to hear that the Canadian government is subsidizing the wealthiest companies in the world, especially a company like Meta, which is not only incredibly wealthy and not really in need of public subsidies, but also, especially, a company that has proven to be so detrimental to our public health, to the health of our democracies, to mental health and to adolescent health. It has accumulated so much power through its vertical and horizontal monopolies that it can bypass democratic oversight. It can simply choose not to comply with the law and to cut off journalism, which we all know is a fundamental pillar of democracy—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Dr. Radsch. I think the time is well over.

I will go to the Bloc Québécois.

Monsieur Champoux, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to use my speaking time in this round to take the discussion back to the motion I moved in committee last week. This motion takes the current context into account, and, even more so, the news that we received yesterday about the major cutbacks at CBC/Radio-Canada.

I don't know whether the committee members would like me to read the motion again, but I think we've already read it and that it was well received last week. I believe we are aware of the the motion's content. It's to the effect that we should study the appropriateness of holding a summit on the media sector. I believe this is more relevant than ever.

With your permission, Madam Chair, given the limited time remaining for this meeting, and with everyone's approval, I'd like to move immediately to the discussion of this motion.

I'm hoping we might be able to vote on this important motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Martin.

I will quickly read the motion in two languages, because most people don't seem to have it with them right now. It's going to go into the record.

This is from Martin Champoux:

Whereas:

(1) The news media is in crisis due to the dominance of foreign digital companies;

(2) Hundreds of newsroom positions across Canada have been cut since the beginning of the year, and hundreds more are likely to be cut in the near future;

(3) Canadian broadcasters, journalists’ associations, news unions and many experts agree that urgent action must be taken to ensure adequate, diversified news coverage in all regions of Quebec and Canada;

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study to determine the appropriateness of holding a national forum on the media and that the committee determine its terms of reference.

That the committee hold a minimum of four meetings and report its recommendations to the House.

Shall I continue?

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

No, that's perfectly clear, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I support this, and I call the vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Is there unanimous consent to call a vote?

Mr. Noormohamed, do you want to continue debate?

Let's be reminded of the time.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I want to move an amendment to the motion, which I shared with Mr. Champoux. I believe he would accept it as a friendly amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

There is no such thing as a friendly amendment. Just read your amendment, please, Mr. Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

To keep this brief, point one remains the same. Point two remains the same. Point three would be modified. I'm sorry: Point three would remain the same, but the change would begin at “That":

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee undertake a study to determine the appropriateness of the national news sector to hold a national forum on the media and that the committee invite sector experts and leaders to discuss and help determine the possible terms of reference. Provided the sector initiates a forum, that governments at the national and provincial levels be invited to contribute to this debate.

That the Committee hold a minimum of four meetings and report its recommendations to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Did everyone get that? We can discuss the amendment now. The clerk will distribute a copy to everyone, so you can see it.

Your name is up to discuss the amendment, Mr. Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It needs to be printed in both languages.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I think it is in both languages.

It's going to be sent by the clerk to you right now, via your email.

Go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

I would ask that discussion be suspended until we have those documents in front of us, so we can read the amendment.