Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Jen Gerson]

Yes, I totally agree.

It's a media oligopoly. It's a grocery oligopoly. It's a telecom oligopoly. Break it up. I completely agree with that. At the same time, as I tried to point out in the last question, use the regulatory powers you have in order to control and dictate some of the content coming out of the major broadcast organizations, which are making billions of dollars in profit, and require them to put some of that money into journalism as a condition of their broadcasting licences. This is an obvious place to start.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I will go to Madame Forest.

[Annick Forest]

As I've said before, it's very important to have lots of sources of information, and I agree that consolidation of any industry is never a good thing. We have to ensure media diversity across Canada, and any way the government can support that, while being creative in the ways it makes sure that the different media organizations have mandates to serve Canadians across the country, is something we have to look at and study.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I will go to Ms. Lindgren for her thoughts.

[Prof. April Lindgren]

I think in some ways the horse has left the barn. To force them to break up, I'm not sure.... There's not much left there.

I look at the newsroom I used to work in, the Ottawa Citizen. Back in 1990, they had 190 people in their newsroom. Today there are fewer than 20.

I think I would err more on the side of asking what we can do to create an environment for viable competitors, new digital start-ups. There are some that are effective models we could look at. Are there ways to encourage more of that?

I think creating opportunities for real competitors is probably a more viable way to do this than trying to breathe life into semi-comatose traditional newsrooms in many cases.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I want to shift a bit to focus on rural media and the immense ground we've lost there.

I represent northern Manitoba, where our local media is literally hanging by a thread. Our newspapers have fewer than 10 staff, and even that's a lot. They're certainly facing all sorts of economic challenges.

Our public broadcaster, the CBC, which has a mandate to provide news to Canadians and has a station based in my hometown of Thompson, has not filled this job in a sustainable fashion for at least the last five years, despite many of us saying that it simply isn't right.

Many of the communities in our region—indigenous, northern and rural communities—are not having their stories or perspectives shared, simply because there is nobody around to do that work, and those media that do exist have very little to no budget to cover these stories. Unfortunately the CBC has been missing in action despite their obligation.

Ms. Lindgren, I was very interested in hearing your proposal around mapping the media desert that exists in northern and rural Canada. I'm wondering if you could share with us how important this work ought to be for the federal government. Is this work we need to be doing right now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Niki, your time is up. Can we get you to ask Ms. Lindgren that question again in the next round, please?

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I am going to go to the second round. It's a five-minute round, and I'll begin with the Conservatives.

Jacques Gourde, you have five minutes, please.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being with us.

I would first like to congratulate the Cégep de Jonquière on its reputation for excellence in media. I would also like to thank Université Laval for its programs that focus specifically on communications and information, as well as the Université du Québec.

I have two daughters who have had the good fortune to find good jobs in communications and production. They have given us a lot of hope. I think that is the case for our young people today. This industry is very competitive. We really have to be aware that the digital platforms have completely changed the environment for the future. In Canada we are losing media revenue, which is going overseas, in social media, and this is a major challenge.

Mr. Fortin, I am going to come back to our young people, who really are full of hope. The way they see it is that they have their whole lives ahead of them. That said, are some of them getting discouraged? Is the placement rate still worthwhile for them, despite the number of students going through the Cégep de Jonquière?

[Jaky Fortin]

Are they all positive? No, they are not. I think there are some who are and who are confident about the future.

Regarding the placement rate, I can't answer you for this year, because we do not yet have the figures. In recent years, the rate was excellent. We are now seeing that there are more problems relating to internship applications because of the cuts happening left and right. This is something we are observing this year. I think these young people want to change things and progress. The ones who stand out will be able to overcome the problems.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

What I consider to be unfortunate is that we will really need these young people in the information landscape in the future. It is hard for young people to find internships, particularly during a period that is seeing cuts in the market. Might there be a way to encourage media companies to keep hiring them anyway and find innovative ways of going about this? We really will need these media workers in the next 15 to 20 years, and losing a generation of these future workers, especially our young people, would do enormous harm. What do you think, Mr. Fortin?

If other witnesses want to answer, feel free.

[Jaky Fortin]

I think that right now, the media are not doing a lot of information for young people. That is an observation. CBC/Radio-Canada is doing interesting things with articles on line that are shorter and are more effective for young people, and that is of more interest to them. However, would it necessarily be viable in the medium term if everybody went on TikTok? I am not sure. I get the feeling that we would be doing what Facebook was three years ago all over again, and ending up back at the starting box. That is a personal comment.

I think that the fact that employers are hiring young people is going to help develop this niche, which may be sustainable in the long term. I think there is a crisis right now. We are in the middle of the crisis, we are feeling it and we are living it. It is more difficult. Things are going to get back to normal soon and internship places are going to be available shortly.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Do any other witnesses want to answer?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Lindgren, go ahead and jump in.

[Prof. April Lindgren]

I'd like to point out that an existing government program, the local journalism initiative, has placed, I think, close to 1,200 people—journalists—at news organizations across the country to fill what are described as under-covered topics, areas or groups.

I think that is an opportunity for early-stage journalists. I think it's coming up for renewed funding, and it's a possibility for this and one way forward.

I would add that the way forward should include additional training for the people hired into these positions, because the content, from what we've seen, can be quite uneven. There's an opportunity for professional development there, as well as getting young people through the door, covering communities, people and issues that really need to be written about.

The second point I would make on this—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 17 seconds.

[Prof. April Lindgren]

—is that there's an opportunity to talk more about a greater role for journalism schools in covering communities that are underserved by local media. We can talk more about that if anyone's interested.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I'll now go to the Liberals.

Ms. Dhillon, you have five minutes, please.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses.

Ms. Brin, I want to address a subject that I think interests everyone here: misinformation and disinformation. Based on your experience at the Centre d'études sur les médias, can you tell us about the need for regulation to combat disinformation in the current media landscape?

[Colette Brin]

In fact, I do not think that regulation in the form of oversight or censorship would be the solution. I think we have to work upstream, which the government has been trying to do for several years, to support a quality information ecosystem, rather than trying to silence or censor voices that we may view as problematic. In any event, disinformation sources are very agile and numerous. They are like the eight-headed Hydra: we cut one off and another one grows back. It is a virtually pointless operation.

When we do journalism, we have to verify the facts, among other things. We have been talking about media literacy. I think that must be taught in the schools, but not just there. Quebec is setting up the Quebec culture and citizenship studies program, which has a digital literacy component. Non-governmental organizations like HabiloMédias are doing a lot of very interesting work in the most vulnerable communities and among the most vulnerable populations. However, this is a battle that has to be constantly started over.

We are talking about the information media. I think that a weak information media ecosystem is fertile ground for disinformation. In addition, disinformation will also erode people's trust, since all sorts of conspiracy theories circulate concerning the media and journalists. For example, during the pandemic, a lot of people believed that the media were complicit with the government, even though reporting and investigations criticizing the government were being published. I think disinformation is a symptom of the crisis we are talking about, not an isolated problem.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

What we are seeing is that young people trust the news less and less. Do you think this is because of all the misinformation they consume on social media?

[Colette Brin]

Young people consume social media because they grew up with social media and digital media. They never knew the era when television, print media and radio were the main sources of information. Social media make up the environment their generation lives in. So it is entirely to be expected that they will turn to those platforms.

When we talk about assessing the reliability of information, the Digital News Report survey we did shows that the youngest adults distinguish very much among the sources or platforms where they consume information. Older adults themselves have retained their trust in the traditional media.

We have to take notice of this. We must not blame young people or point fingers at them. Instead, we have to understand their reality. I have two children who are young adults, and I ask them about how they get information and their relationship with the information on these platforms. I think people really can use non-traditional platforms critically and intelligently. So the problem is not the platforms.

The behaviour of corporations like Meta when it comes to information is problematic. I think Meta's response to Bill C‑18 was extreme and problematic. I say that with all due respect for the Conservative member. These platforms also have a very useful role to play in democratic life. It is not all black or all white.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you for your amazing answer and the study you did on this subject.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 15 seconds left.