Canadian Heritage Committee on May 7th, 2024

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I would like to hear what the legal risks would be if you were to, let's say, opt to arbitrarily cut the performance pays.

[Catherine Tait]

Just to imagine, we have 1,180-odd employees who receive this performance pay. If we were to decide to eliminate it unilaterally after a year where we achieved our performance indicators and our targets, we would be basically in a situation of constructive dismissal, given that those people would have performed the work of the previous 12 months. It does pose a legal risk, but more importantly, it poses a motivation risk, if people do not have this incentive. We know that it is a big driver in the company.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Is the performance pay noted in today's motion.... That's something that you've previously discussed before this committee. Is it something that was changed with regard to your last appearance? Has that undergone—

[Catherine Tait]

No.

In fact, performance pay has been part of the compensation regime at CBC/Radio-Canada for close to 20 years, like many of our colleagues, other Crown corporations and government departments. There's nothing new under the sun here.

If I may just correct the record, because there has been information circulated that we paid out performance pay knowing that we were going to announce—or after we announced—cuts.... It's simply untrue. Performance pay for the fiscal year of 2022 to 2023 was paid out in July 2023. We have not as yet paid out or even decided on performance pay for the year ending 2023 to 2024, just to clarify the record.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you for the clarification.

Is the performance pay in question—presumably based on key performance indicators—established at the start of the year relevant to non-unionized staff at CBC/Radio-Canada? If so, what are some of the examples of the roles this issue has in terms of consequences and impacts?

[Catherine Tait]

Yes. When we meet with the board in June we will also discuss the KPIs for the next fiscal year, the current 2024 to 2025 year. The board approves those KPIs.

Those KPIs are based on an analysis of what's going on in the industry and also stretch targets for the non-union employees or unaffiliated employees in the corporation. Those, as you know, can be numbers such as employment equity. It can be reach, digital reach. What we know is that these drivers do impact employees' performance and managers' performance.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

On a different topic, when the board of directors looks into options for the viability of the corporation, as we saw and as was reported in La Presse last week, is this a normal threat-and-opportunity assessment by the board of directors, in your opinion?

[Catherine Tait]

Yes, absolutely. I mean, every media company in the country—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 15 seconds, please.

[Catherine Tait]

—is looking at ways to combat the digital giants.

The board of directors, I believe, was acting very responsibly in asking management to prepare what we call a “transformation plan”, but which is really a reflection on options for the corporation to better prepare for a digital future and enormous competition.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I now go to the Bloc Québécois and Martin Champoux.

Martin, you have six minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hello, Ms. Tait and Mr. Dubé.

Ms. Tait, the last time you testified before this committee, you talked about CBC/Radio-Canada's financial situation. You said that if the situation improved, you could revisit the decision that had been announced, to eliminate 600 positions divided equally between the French and English services. You will recall the outcry that the announcement prompted. I want to tell you straightaway that the outcry has not entirely died down.

Today, you described for us how things stand now. You talked about the money the government came up with, in particular the exemption you received from reducing your operating costs by 3.3%, and the $7 million that CBC/Radio-Canada will be able to receive under the agreement with Google Canada. The situation has therefore been restored, from what you just said in your opening remarks.

Are you still saying that cutting jobs remains up in the air or are you going to remove this sword of Damocles that is dangling over the heads of CBC/Radio-Canada employees?

[Catherine Tait]

Given that the situation has improved, we can say that for the moment, we can stop cutting jobs. We are also going to try to restore investment in independent production.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

In an open letter released this week, Mr. Tousignant, the president of the Syndicat des travailleuses et travailleurs de Radio-Canada, and Ms. Brunet, the president of the Association des réalisateurs, said they were trying to get answers from you concerning 346 positions that were cut between December 2023 and April 2024.

Are they included in the announcements you have made? How were these cuts made? Were they made applying the same ratio as you initially proposed?

These people have had no answer from you. What can you tell them today?

[Catherine Tait]

If I may, I am going to ask Marco Dubé to give you some details about that.

[Marco Dubé, Chief Transformation Officer and Executive Vice-President, People and Culture, CBC/Radio-Canada]

What I can tell them is that a large majority of the positions that were eliminated were already vacant, so we limited the number of layoffs we did. There were proportionately twice as many layoffs among managers as among unionized employees. At the end of the fiscal year, of the 346 positions, there were a few more at the CBC than at Radio-Canada, and so the initial fear did not materialize. As well, the financial situation has improved, so we have been able to restore the situation. We are very happy about this, and we hope that things will keep going on a positive path.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I will not ask you for any more details about the specific positions that have been eliminated, Mr. Dubé. However, on behalf of the committee, I would like to get those details in writing. If you could send them to us, we would appreciate it.

Ms. Tait, this week it was all hands on deck. We learned that senior management at CBC/Radio-Canada was thinking about a merger formula in order to take on the digital giants and the new market that is taking shape for broadcasters in Quebec and Canada, which you spoke about just now.

Obviously, when there is talk of merging the CBC and Radio-Canada, we cannot expect Quebeckers to be reassured and think that all is well, French will be protected, and their identity and culture will be given due consideration. We are worried; we do not think this makes sense.

At your last appearance here, if I recall correctly, you explained that the CBC and Radio-Canada share infrastructure, buildings, technology, equipment, and administrative and financial resources. In fact, you said that CBC/Radio-Canada was one company, except when it comes to programming and news. Do you understand why we might be worried now? You talk about a merger, but what are you going to merge if all there is left to merge is programming and news?

[Catherine Tait]

That is not the case at all. We are dealing with a digital shift. We are certainly talking about equipment and all the tools we have for production and distribution. The most important thing is that we be able to compete with the digital giants for this kind of investment.

I am talking about the platforms. I was in Winnipeg for the launch of our new national indigenous strategy and I met with people from Radio-Canada who work alongside people from the CBC. They asked me whether they would someday have the same platform for their rundowns since, for the web, the CBC and Radio-Canada have different systems and websites. This is the kind of deliberation we are engaged in.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You understand that when it comes to how the two entities have been managed in recent years, nothing has gone well for Quebec's unique cultural identity. Nothing has seemed respectful of the cultural difference. It worries us when you talk about merging the two entities even further.

When we think about the possibility, which is not completely crazy, of saying that you are actually trying to protect the CBC from the advent of a potential Conservative government that is threatening to slash its funding or defund it, we think that given that it is one company, what is allocated to Radio-Canada and the French services right now, in particular programming and news, is necessarily going to be used to fund the CBC's operations in order to try to save it, by robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Catherine Tait]

That is not the case at all, I assure you.

The editorial independence of CBC and Radio-Canada continues to be a fundamental principle of our services. In fact, we have invested in a new home for Radio-Canada and we have also invested hugely in IP technology to improve everything being done at Radio-Canada. Personally, I promise you that the strength and importance of Radio-Canada for the French fact and French language will continue to be central to all our deliberations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Tait.

Thank you, Martin.

I now go to the New Democrats, Niki Ashton, for six minutes, please.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

With executive bonuses, layoffs of workers, cuts to local broadcasting, the use and abuse of non-disclosure agreements to silence and intimidate employees, Canadians may be wondering if we're talking about a major media conglomerate, perhaps Bell Media, but no, we're talking about the publicly funded CBC.

To many Canadians, the CBC, an institution we have built, is increasingly acting like a private corporation, putting profits ahead of everything else. We are aware in recent months about the back and forth on whether or not CBC executives like you, Ms. Tait, will be taking a bonus. Potentially $15 million being spent on executive bonuses while jobs disappear is wildly irresponsible. Rewarding oneself for failure while families and communities pay the price of job losses and the loss of local programming is unacceptable.

Will you commit to cancelling executive bonuses to save as many jobs as possible?

[Catherine Tait]

I believe I've answered this question already, Madam Chair. The consideration on performance pay will be deliberated at our next board meeting.

Also, if I may say, cutting salaries does not—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

You've already answered the question. I'll move on to my next one.

Madam Tait, you've talked about allowing communities to tell their stories. Sadly, that's not the case here in northern Manitoba. Our trail-blazing CBC station, North Country, is empty because the CBC has utterly failed to fill the position in a long-term capacity over a number of years. This means that 85,000 people living in first nations and northern communities across our region do not have CBC local programming, contributing to our existence as a media desert. We've been left with the occasional reporter sent from Winnipeg as part of your pop-up initiatives.

Ms. Tate, we are not a tourist destination; we are Canadians who deserve local programming in the CBC and the reopening of our local CBC station. The CBC has an obligation, including through the CRTC, to our station and local programming.

When will the CBC live up to its mandate, including CRTC obligations, and what are you going to do to reinstate local programming and staff-up our CBC station here in northern Manitoba?