Canadian Heritage Committee on May 7th, 2024

[Catherine Tait]

I'm really delighted to be able to break the news that after many, many months of posting the job in Thompson, Manitoba, we have in fact identified a journalist who will be reporting from Thompson, I believe, in the coming weeks. I checked in with our head of that presence.

Also, just to be clear, during a period of looking at job reductions, we kept the regional position open in Manitoba, because we believe, like you, how important it is. That's why we've opened bureaus in Nanaimo and other places.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I'll stop you right there.

It is music to my ears that you have finally hired somebody after this many years. I appreciate the good news being shared. It also goes to show that public pressure works. I'm very much looking forward to this person's starting up and obviously getting the full support of the CBC, particularly CBC Manitoba. That's support we haven't seen the way we've needed to, or certainly the way our reporters have needed to, in the past.

I want to quickly move to another question. When the committee decided to bring you back, multiple former employees reached out to my office to discuss their mistreatment while working at the CBC. Not one of the many people who reached out to me was willing to speak on the record, due to the use and abuse of non-disclosure agreements and non-disparagement agreements, especially when it comes to harassment. These are agreements that we've been told CBC requires employees to sign before they will even investigate.

As a result, I'll have to be somewhat vague in order to protect the identities of the people who reached out. Each person who reached out was recognized as excelling in his or her field. Not one of them had a good thing to say about how his or her time at the CBC ended. They all said that things got worse since you took over. Many of them mentioned directly apprising you of the situation but that nothing changed.

Can you describe CBC's policies on non-disclosure and non-disparagement agreements? Also, are you aware of instances where the CBC has investigated a claim of harassment where the CBC did not rely on a non-disclosure or non-disparagement agreement before starting the investigation?

[Catherine Tait]

I will have to ask Marco Dubé to get into the details, because I do not get involved, obviously, in direct personnel matters. However, I am deeply disturbed by what you are saying, and I will absolutely take it to heart. This is news to me. I take it very seriously.

However, maybe Marco can answer the questions—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Just to reiterate, what we are looking for is whether the CBC is aware of an investigation of a claim of harassment where CBC did not rely on the use of a non-disclosure or non-disparagement agreement before starting the investigation.

I will say, Ms. Tait, that we are aware of instances where former employees did raise this directly with you years ago, and nothing was done.

[Marco Dubé]

Thank you for your question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 38 seconds.

[Marco Dubé]

I'll simplify and summarize. We take very seriously all allegations of harassment and violence in the workplace. We assess those claims. We investigate those claims with external investigators.

There are rules around those investigations that are regulated. There's a law, actually, that we have to follow in the labour code.

We do all of that respectfully, and we try, along the way, to protect the victims of those events. Certainly, we try to protect, along the way, the confidentiality of people—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Are you aware of any cases in which an NDA was not used in investigating harassment? That's the question I asked.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, but the time is now up.

We move on to the second round, which is a five-minute round, and we begin, for the Conservatives, with Rachel Thomas for five minutes. Go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Ms. Tait, at our previous committee meeting on January 30, you confirmed that you are at the decision-making table with regard to bonuses. In fact, I'll quote you directly. You said, “They make that decision based on the data that we present to them”. In other words, the board makes a decision with regard to bonuses. They sign off on them based on the information that “we”—your management team, which you are the executive leader of—make to them. Ultimately, then, you have a voice at the management table and at the board table. You have two places where you get to speak to whether or not the top eight executives of the CBC get bonuses, and how much. You are one of those top eight. Ms. Tait, what is the recommendation that went forward with regard to the bonuses for the top eight executives for the 2023 fiscal year?

[Catherine Tait]

I really am sorry to seem difficult here, but the 2022-23 year has already passed.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I didn't ask about that.

[Catherine Tait]

This year—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I was very clear. I'm asking for the 2023 fiscal year.

[Catherine Tait]

—so for the 2023-24 year...?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Sure, you can include those three extra months in 2024.

[Catherine Tait]

That's our fiscal year. It ends at the end of March 2024, so for 2023-24, no recommendation has been prepared as yet. We are still reviewing our final results. We are a large corporation—$1.8 billion. A lot of data has to be reviewed, financials have to be audited and KPIs have to be assessed and evaluated. All of that package goes to the board in mid-June, at which point we will discuss it.

By the way, I am not part of that eight. I am separate. As a Governor in Council appointee, I do not participate in the performance pay that the other executives participate in.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay. I can appreciate that.

Either you lied on January 30 or you're lying now, and the reason being.... I'll quote the words that you used at that time. You said, “at the end of the fiscal year, which will be the end of March, [2024] the board of directors will decide”. In other words, at the end of March 2024, which has now passed—it's May 7—there would have been a decision made. Now you just told me that no decision has yet been made.

[Catherine Tait]

First of all, I really take objection to being called a liar, which has happened several times. It is....

Madam Chair, this is not the first time that I am being called a liar by certain members of this committee. It actually is the first time in a 40-year career that anybody has ever addressed me in this way, so I want to make a personal objection.

Having said that, I made it clear that, at the board meeting following the end of the fiscal year, we would be reviewing the results for the fiscal year. That meeting is always held in June. It gives us the time to review all of the results, to get them audited and to prepare the package, in English and in French, for the board of directors. This is a very large corporation; we do not do this overnight.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Tait, there are two discrepancies here.

One, I'm looking at your website, and it says, “Senior Executive Team”. Your picture is shown there, so you are one of the members of the senior executive team—so that's a point of clarification there.

Two, I read your direct quote when you said that bonus decisions would be made in March 2024. Now you're saying to this committee, no, those decisions haven't been made.

[Catherine Tait]

That's correct. They have not been made. They will be made at the—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Then why did you tell us on June 30 that they would be made in March, then?

[Catherine Tait]

Because it's the end of the fiscal—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

You're either misleading us now or you misled us then.

[Catherine Tait]

I am not misleading you. I said that at the end of the fiscal year—