Canadian Heritage Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

While I have no problem amending the motion to have the minister for one hour and officials for the other hour—which is in accordance with other committees—we in the NDP oppose the current amendment ahead of us, and certainly the proposal to eliminate the date.

This is obviously close to the end of the session. We feel that we've been waiting for the anti-racism strategy for months. The fact that we possibly won't be able to hear from the minister until before the end of session is simply not acceptable on something as important as an anti-racism strategy, and the inclusion of anti-Palestinian racism as part of that strategy.

We will be opposing these two measures.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Mr. Champoux is next.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Chair, before proposing a specific date or deadline for welcoming a minister to the committee, it seems to me that we should check on two or three matters.

Can we be sure that the minister will be available on the few dates we have left to hold committee meetings between now and the end of parliamentary business? It's perhaps a bit rash to add a date to this motion. I think we should show a little flexibility and first make sure the minister is available before saying we want her to appear on such-and-such a date or no later than such-and-such a date.

In short, on the one hand, I think the proposal to withdraw the date is relevant and, on the other hand, I maintain my support for the amendment proposed by Ms. Thomas.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Are there any other conversations on the amendment?

Seeing none, I will call the vote on Ms. Thomas's amendment, which would eliminate the last two and a half lines.

Go ahead, Mr. Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Mr. Chair, this is just for procedural clarity.

If we agree to the amendment, we're then going to move to amend on the basis of what Monsieur Champoux has just recommended, following the passage of the amendment. Is that correct? Is that what we're doing procedurally?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Yes. I would think that's true.

We're going to vote on your amendment, and then—

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Yes. Sorry.

We're going to vote on Ms. Thomas's amendment, and then someone else would have to move the other amendment that we have just talked about.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

That's fine. The reason I wanted to make sure we're clear on this is that one of the challenges we're going to have, obviously, is that the anti-racism strategy hasn't been made public yet. It's hard for the minister to comment on something that actually hasn't yet been released for us to actually look at it. We just need to manage that in the context of timing, but there are a number of days left.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Okay.

I will now call the vote on the amendment by Ms. Thomas.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 9; nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Go ahead, Mr. Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Chair, we are therefore resuming debate on the amended motion.

I'd like to make sure I've understood correctly. So the motion includes “before June 19, 2024, to answer questions related to its Anti-Racism strategy”, and that's where it ends.

I have two things to say.

Mr. Chair, I don't know if you're still optimistic, but it's 5:28 p.m. and we're still debating a motion. If you like, we could offer our guests the chance to leave, if they wish, or to stay and watch the entertaining debate of this committee. It's up to them.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Yes. They can go.

[Some hon members]

Oh, oh!

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

I will say to the committee that we do have to vote on the main estimates here before we leave. We have a hard stop at 5:40 p.m.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'll be quick, Mr. Chair. I'm going to make a proposal.

As I pointed out earlier, we cannot assume the minister's availability on the dates and days the committee sits between now and June 19. To this end, I think that, before imposing a date in a motion, it would be a good idea to ascertain the minister's availability.

I propose amending the motion to make it more vague. This probably won't please Ms. Ashton, but I would suggest, amicably, that she withdraw her motion for the time being, so that we can ascertain the minister's availability in the next few weeks. Perhaps that's something our Liberal colleagues could do. Then, once we have the information, we could come back to this motion, which would contain a specific date.

I'm pretty convinced that the motion would be passed very quickly if we proceeded in this way. You would certainly have my full co‑operation and my word of honour.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Ms. Ashton, your hand is up.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

With all due respect to you, Mr. Champoux, I have to say that, frankly, I'm shocked by what you said.

If the minister responsible for combatting racism doesn't have time in the next three weeks to appear before the committee with respect to Canada's anti-racism strategy—an important strategy for the Liberal government—what are we doing here?

The Department of Canadian Heritage funds those efforts, and it is within the committee's purview to ask the minister what she's doing on the issue. We regularly invite ministers to appear before the committee. Talking about anti-Palestinian hate in Canada and other forms of hate such as anti-Semitism and Islamophobia is hugely important. As far as I'm concerned, that should be one of the Liberal minister's priorities. Otherwise, that tells you how much the Liberals prioritize Canada's anti-racism strategy and the serious work required to address the issue.

For those reasons, I'm not going to withdraw my motion. I hope that the minister can find at least one hour in her schedule, in the three weeks remaining before the House adjourns, to come and speak with the committee about this essential strategy.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Mr. Noormohamed, your hand is up.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'd like to thank Mr. Champoux for his suggestion, which I agree with.

That said, if Ms. Ashton actually wants us to adopt her motion today, I'm prepared to work together to find a solution, which may be to say that the committee needs to see the report.

If we want to pass a motion, I am happy for us to pass a motion that says that the minister should appear, as the motion is drafted, but adding the caveat that the minister appear once the report has been made public and/or presented is the key here.

If withdrawing the motion and re-presenting is not an option, then perhaps the motion should say everything that's been said, because I think we all absolutely agree that the rise in anti-Semitism, the rise in Islamophobia and the rise in anti-Palestinian racism are all things we have to address in the report. I'm assuming the strategy addresses all of that or will speak to it.

We should have the opportunity to review the report before the minister comes. If the desire is to have a motion—and I think we all support that idea—let's at least ensure that the document we're talking about is something that we've seen. I think that seems like a reasonable thing to say.

We have two options. Do we pass a motion that says that once the report is presented, we expect the minister to show up, or, as Mr. Champoux suggested, do we pull it and bring it back when the strategy is made public?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

I have Mr. Champoux's amendment, which does not include the date.

Is there any other discussion on this?

Mr. Champoux, go ahead.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm quite surprised by Ms. Ashton's reaction, because I thought my suggestion was quite reasonable.

What Mr. Noormohamed said also seems quite reasonable to me. I think it's perfectly normal to have the report in hand before we meet with the minister. That in no way diminishes the importance or relevance of that discussion. I just think it's the right way to go about it, while working together in a collegial and constructive way. I am not saying that because I am against the motion—not at all. Quite the opposite, I think all of us around the table agree on that. All I am asking is that we do things in the proper order. Let's do things in a way that makes sense and is constructive. Let's wait until the report comes out, see when the minister is available and then hold the meeting.

I don't really have an amendment. I think that, first and foremost, we need the report. It is clear that Ms. Ashton doesn't want to put off discussing the motion, so I will let the chips fall where they may.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Go ahead, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I simply want to add that we've been waiting for quite some time for the anti-racism strategy to be presented. That has not been the case. I think it's pretty clear that this is problematic, especially given the rise of hate in our country in terms of anti-Palestinian racism, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. I don't think it's acceptable to wait until this strategy that we've been waiting for for quite some time to come out.

As I've indicated, I'm very concerned that a number of advocates and stakeholders, including Palestinian Canadians, have concerns that anti-Palestinian racism is not being considered as part of the strategy. We want to get to the bottom of that.

Obviously, we're now dealing with a truncated motion that doesn't mention anti-Palestinian racism or anti-Semitism. Certainly my intent in presenting this motion was to have a vote and hear from the minister, and, frankly, for us as a committee to share thoughts on our end. If Liberals and Conservatives don't want to support that, or the Bloc—whoever—then I say let's put it to a vote as it is now.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

We need to vote on the main estimates. Can I go ahead with the vote on the main estimates, because of time?

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I have a point of order.

You need unanimous consent.