Canadian Heritage Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I'm going to move on to another topic, which is Canada Day. Could you please send the committee a list of the contributions that were made and the organizations that received them?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

That information is public and can be found on the website.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

That's fine.

Let's go back to the $100 million deal that was struck with Google. Is Canada the first country to sign such an agreement?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Canada is the first country that has reached a transparent agreement with Google. This makes it possible to know the amounts that will be paid and to whom they will go.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

The government you represent wanted $178 million but, according to media reports, Google offered $100 million, take it or leave it, with no negotiation possible. The fact that Canada was the first country to take this initiative, but accepted this $100 million, set a precedent, indicating to the entire planet that Google did not negotiate with countries and that what it offered was take it or leave it.

Are you aware that by accepting the $100 million, you've set an international precedent?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I find it really interesting that you're concerned about this deal, because you did everything you could to block the Online News Act and to make sure that Google wouldn't pay a penny to our Canadian media. It's a transparent deal.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Madam Minister, you are not aware of the global precedent you have set.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

This is a transparent agreement. The precedent set is that we know exactly how much the media will receive and...

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

How much money did Google put on the table? One hundred million dollars.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

—to whom it is going to go. We know how much money will go to our Canadian media. That's not the case in other countries, and—

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

You haven't—

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

—we made sure that if there are better—

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Madam Minister, you haven't added a penny.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Chair, I can't even answer his questions.

Mr. Gourde, you're being rude.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Madam Minister, you haven't gained a penny more than what Google initially offered.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

That's very rude. You assert things, but you don't let me respond.

Let me repeat that this is the first agreement in the world that is transparent. For the first time, we know where the money will be going. What's more, if better agreements are signed in other countries, we've made sure we can renegotiate the Canadian one. We want the digital giants, including Google, to contribute to supporting our media.

May I remind you that you voted against this law. So you voted against the $100 million.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

You signed a reduction, Madam Minister.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Gourde, that's it.

The final five minutes go to the Liberals and Jennifer O'Connell, please.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. That exchange was quite interesting, especially off the top, when Mr. Gourde referred to another member and the issues around speaking French. Using the same logic, he should have turned to the member next to him and suggested that Ms. Thomas resign after demanding that you speak English at this very committee. The hypocrisy from Conservatives is quite interesting.

He also mentioned the Liberals' record in the nineties and seemed to just glide right over the Conservatives' record—10 years of darkness. Why do you think that is? Is it perhaps the embarrassment around Conservative cuts that have led to journalism cuts in communities like mine that really rely on local journalism as part of our democratic institutions?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I think asking the question is answering it. When we saw the way the Conservatives treated my colleague, we saw that they had a double standard.

As for the budget cuts made by Mr. Harper, I would remind you that these cuts were made at the beginning of the media crisis, when the digital giants were entering the market and capturing advertising revenues. Instead of supporting the public broadcaster, the Conservatives preferred to make cuts of over $115 million to its annual funding, resulting in hundreds, if not thousands, of job losses at CBC/Radio-Canada.

Therefore, I find it interesting that this MP is asking questions today about the viability and jobs of the public broadcaster, but I find he doesn't have a huge amount of credibility.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I also find it interesting that the Conservatives spent nearly 11 minutes off the top talking about things that concern them. However, it all stemmed, I think, from your words—villainizing the CBC/Radio-Canada—and all because, as we've seen in places like the U.S., Conservatives around the world, and certainly the MAGA Conservatives here, can't seem to take tough questions from independent journalists. Therefore, they'd rather replace it with people who really don't challenge them, don't ask them questions. Their hand-picked misinformation is the only way. It's particularly ironic that they wouldn't even allow you the time. They ask you to come here. They want to ask you tough questions but don't have the courage to actually let you answer.

I find that particularly interesting. I'm deeply concerned, and I would like your opinion on this as well. By getting rid of independent journalists across this country, what happens to our democratic institutions? What happens to countries where you have hand-picked propaganda machines that only prop up certain political parties instead of having true, independent journalism there?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Democracy is based on powers and counterweights. The news media and journalism are one of these checks and balances, in addition to the judicial system.

I'm very wary of politicians who aren't very moved at all to see thousands of journalists lose their jobs in Canada and who say they're going to slash funding for our public broadcaster, when we know that, in many communities, it's the only Canadian source of information left about what's going on at home.

Journalists make politicians like us accountable. It's true that sometimes it's hard to answer journalists' questions, but it's necessary, because it's a counterweight to government and allows the public to get facts, not just opinions or propaganda.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

It certainly is interesting when members opposite can't take tough questions from journalists. I think we all saw that pretty tough video to watch of Ms. Thomas not even being able to answer if she supports the existence of Radio-Canada. It concerns me deeply too when politicians are now just on speaking points and repeating the same slogans over and over again. It's not just at the federal level. I worry about local journalism in municipal elections and provincial elections.

What happens when we lose that journalism and replace it with talking points from one leader and just slogan after slogan and no action to actually save journalists in this country?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

We've seen communities where losing local journalists has had a direct effect on municipal taxes. This is what happens when there are no journalists checking municipal budgets.

I don't know if you have the time to dig into your municipality's budget, but often we don't. It takes people who devote their lives to monitoring public spending and holding politicians to account.

Losing journalists has effects that trickle down to people's pockets. This should concern not only Conservatives, but all of us.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell. Thank you, Minister. I have to wrap things up. The first hour is over.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing for the first hour, and thank you to department officials Ms. Mondou and Mr. Ripley. You're free to go.

I will ask now if we are going to continue with the main estimates?